Encouraging Abilities Podcast

Respect - A Chat with Down syndrome Self-Advocate Paul Sawka

From writing blogs for the Canadian Down Syndrome Society to planning an autobiography, CDSS Awareness Leader, Paul Sawka does it all. We caught up with the staunch self-advocate in Calgary.

Adelle Purdham: I Don't Do Disability and Other Lies I've Told Myself

Receiving the news that your unborn child has Down syndrome can be a shock to parents. In this Encouraging Abilities podcast, we chat with author Adelle Purdham and her emotionally driven book about what it's like as a parent raising a child with the condition, and how most issues are created largely within ourselves.

The Future is Bright - Students Developing Apps to Aid Disabilities

Not your typical high school students. Jora Singh Nahal and Inbal Tzafrir are motivated and atruistic. The pair of award-winning students are developing applications to benefit the disability community.

Rising from the Ashes - One Man's Life Turns to Advocacy

Mike Shoreman was a regular guy running a paddle-boarding business in Ontario until Ramsay Hunt syndrome struck him down and forced him to re-evaluate his life. Since then he has become a staunch advocate for the disability and mental health communities, showing how overcoming adversity is in all of us.
TRANSCRIPT
Evan:
so welcome back to DDA encouraging abilities podcast. I am your host. DDA communications manager Evan Kelly, today, we're not just talking about cognitive disabilities, but mental health as well adaptability, resilience and overcoming adversity. Joining me to talk about all that, is Mike shoreman.
Now here at DDA, I've been following mike on social media for some time. He is a mental health and disability advocate. Now, Mike is and was a typically developed, developed person and a coach, a paddle boarding coach with paddle Canada, until he was struck down with what's called Ramsay hunt syndrome back in 2018 now, the condition led to severe physical impairments, including loss of mobility, hearing and vision, chronic vertigo, facial nerve collapse, all of this culminating into a mental health crisis. Suffice to say, it was very life changing for Mike.
Perseverance is key. And by 2022, Mike became the first person with disabilities to paddle across all of Canada's five great lakes. So Mike, it's so great to have you here today.
Mike:
Great to Great to be here with Evan. Thanks for having me.
Evan:
No problem now, son, I don't want to give everything away, so I start this with a lot of my podcasts. So tell me a little bit more about Mike schorman.
Mike:
Oh, well, I am a keynote speaker, consultant and advocate. I work with organizations, academic institutions, government agencies, schools to help empower their people. And you know, help, help empower people and improve mental health, education and disability education. I work a lot with human connection. We learned a lot of things out there on the Great Lakes. It wasn't just me who went across them. It was a whole group, a whole team that I built to help support me, so we had to learn how to connect with each other to do these five marathons. But yeah, no, I'm I am just a regular guy who went out and did a big thing, and that was made possible by the support of a lot of incredible humans.
Evan:
Now, Ramsay hunt syndrome, that that's not something that comes up very much. I didn't even know it existed until I started to follow you. Had never heard of this condition. So what is it and how does it affect people?
Mike:
Right? So it's a neurological disorder, condition. It is activated. So what it is is essentially, if you've had chicken pox, chicken pox, once you've had it, it stays in your system, and it remains dormant. So many of us had chicken pox when we were kids. I did I had, I had a very mild case, me too, when I was Yep, and, and then it just stays in your system, and, and it can be awakened later in life as shingles. And, you know, both my grandparents had shingles. Shingles is usually you get shingles in your in your later stages of life.
 
Evan:
Well, ironically, ironically, I had shingles a number of years ago, probably about 20 years ago, when I was fairly young, and the doctor figured it was stress related, but it did happen to me.
Mike:
Right, connection, right? So the Herpes Zoster virus, which is chicken pox, it can be reactivated as shingles when brought on by stress and and so what Ramsey hunt syndrome is is it is shingles, but very specified to when it attacks your eye or your ear. So in my case, it attacked my ear. I ran myself into the ground and wasn't taking care of myself. As I was an entrepreneur and I was running my paddle boarding business, and and ultimately, I worked myself into the ground and wasn't looking after myself well enough. And then, and then, it affected many different things, because it affected my vestibular system as it affected my ear. So Ramsay hunt syndrome can be mild to severe. In my case, it was very severe. The mayor of Toronto, the current mayor of Toronto, Olivia Chow she she had Ramsey hunt syndrome, I think back in 2000 Then eight she and she had to publicly announce it, because, because facial facial paralysis is part of it. And as being in politics, she had to make an announcement that this is not a stroke. This is what this is. And then a couple years ago, Justin Bieber announced that he had it and he canceled his entire world tour.
Evan:
Wow, wow, and so. So for you, what were some of the long term effects?
Mike:
So, what is a chronic condition? So even now, you know six, what are we were five, seven years later, even now, there are days where where my energy is low, or the barometric pressure changes, and I can feel it, or I get tired, and you can tell when my walking or my or my talking or with my speech, But no, I essentially lost my mobility, and I had to work with a vestibular rehab therapist to reprogram my brain ways to walk in a straight line. They said that I would never get back on the water, that I would never paddle board again.
I had to go for, you know, audiology tests and vision tests and and MRIs to rule out brain damage. So, no, it was a, it was a very big adjustment to to a new normal.
Evan:
Yeah, and then, so, you know, you're, you're a paddle boarding business, you're obviously outdoorsy, active kind of guy. Again, back to what I said earlier. Was typically developed. How, how difficult was this, to accept that life just suddenly changed?
Mike:
No, you know, when you acquired, you know, so many Canadians, so many people acquire disabilities later in life. I am just one of them, but it seems like there were so many all at once, and it was incredibly overwhelming. And you know when you lose your when you go from standing on a paddle board teaching people for 1012, hours a day and working for 17 hours a day, to not being able to walk and not being able to drink out of a cup, you know now you have to use a straw suddenly. And you know, when you have a shower because of the vertigo, you have to sit down in the bathtub rather than standing up. You know, all of a sudden, I lost my business. I lost the ability to earn an income. I lost my social life, which is hugely important with connecting with others when we're struggling. I couldn't I couldn't go out. I couldn't see people. So my world went from being very big to very, very small and and ultimately, you know, loss of independence, loss of social life, loss of identity in the world that I had created. And so I just didn't recognize, like, like, like many people who go through through that later in life. I just didn't recognize who I was anymore.
Evan:
Well, when you say later in life, though, that you weren't, I mean, how old were you when this happened? Oh, well, 35 Yeah, it's not very late.
Mike:
No, no, no, yeah, no, I Yeah, no, I was still, I guess still.
Evan:
Yeah, that was same for me when I, when I mentioned that I have shingles, I was probably around even like 28 I was that right? That young when that happened. So I guess we're poster children now for the fact that that can happen, not just later in life. Yeah. So, yeah. So was there a turning point when you realize that mental health needed to be the focus for you?
Mike:
It's dealing with physical stuff is one thing, but there's that whole mental health side of it, absolutely so a big focus on my recovery was placed on physical rehabilitation, but not so much with the mental Health and I was, I ultimately, what it came down to was that I felt like I, you know, I was, I was being looked after. And after months and months and months of this, I felt like I was a burden on other people, and I didn't see, you know, when we, when we go through a. Shift in, in our physicality and in, in, in how we operate and how we, you know, do day to day life. You know, it's it's a, it's a, it's complex. And I wasn't coping I didn't have the coping strategies in place at the time, and so ultimately, I ended up going for a stay in a mental health treatment facility, and it was there that I was set up with counselors and therapists, and I don't advocate for it with everyone. But in my case, it did work. I did go on medication and and it did, it did work well for me and and on the other side of receiving treatment, and, you know, coming out of there with, you know, coping strategies and tools that I could implement. That was when I decided I didn't want other people to ever feel as alone or as hopeless as I felt, and
Evan:
so suffice to say, your adverse, your advocacy that you do right now in life is a direct result of what happened to you. Absolutely yes, yes. And so this, so this inspired you to become a mental health advocate. And so, awareness and support, I guess, is your main goal is that is, I guess is that kind of your full time job? Now? Is that what you do?
 
 
 
Mike:
Yeah, so full time I work, I work with corporate I work with businesses and corporations. I do a lot and and schools, government agencies, nonprofits. I do a lot of conferences and and I work most. Most of it is stress management and burnout production, because that's what happened with me. So you know a lot of organizations who, who have, you know it's competitive out there. So a lot of people who, who have employees in industries who are ambitious and highly competitive. They look at my story and they see, they see the these. They see the face of of what, what can happen, you know. And, and then, and yeah. So I get to work with a lot of incredible, incredible people, and that is, that is my full time, my full time job.
Evan:
Now, when you look back and then you look at your life, now, does it seem weird that you're doing this rather than your business, your other business, I mean, your paddle board business.
Mike:
Yeah, no, it's, it's funny because I get to, I still get to do it. I get to do depending on the time of year and where I am. I've done team building exercises, so I still get to do that. So you know, if a company will have has me in and they want to do a keynote, but then they want to go paddle boarding. We bring in paddle boards or, or we set that up so, so that's really nice. I've got, I've, I've been able to carry that on and still keep, you know, my my toes in that a little bit, which is, which is nice for me.
Evan:
Nice. So what specific changes or outcomes have you seen as a result of your advocacy?
Mike:
So no, I've had some wonderful opportunities in 2022 of course, we created that campaign for jack.org which is Canada's national youth mental health charity, to cross the Great Lakes. So we recreated in 1988 Vicki Keith swam across the Great Lakes to raise funding for children, raise funding and awareness for disability organization that supported children with disabilities and and in 2022 we recreated that, except using becoming the first person to do it on a paddle board. And, and so that that helped create, you know, I don't know the numbers they have set jack.org. Has said this helped create, you know, helped us, you know, create programs and services supplied to 1000s of young people across Canada, so that that always makes me feel good. Yeah, but no, I've been, I've I've had wonderful relationships with several mental health organizations across Canada. I've done some consulting work with the newly launched 988, which is Canada's national suicide prevention hotline, to help them make their help them. Make the national number more accessible for persons with disabilities, because persons with disabilities face mental health challenges five times higher than the national average, yeah, so, so I do a lot of consulting work and and a lot of Connect, you know, connecting with people. In May, I had the honor of keynoting the 34th Annual National Suicide Prevention Conference in Vancouver.
So I've, I connected with mental health organizations all across the country. And from that, I've, I've, you know, they've had me. And so I've worked with my first indigenous communities now, which is highly rewarding, because they, you know, face significant it's a mental health crisis within indigenous communities in Canada, so to go In and connect with people and and, you know, provide education, but but some motivation and hope. Because when people are struggling, that's, that's, that's what they need. They need a reminder to keep going, and that today is today. Might be a dark day, but there, you know, there was tomorrow, and tomorrow can be a little bit better than today.
Evan:
Do you think Canada is succeeding in these kinds of supports? How are we doing? From your perspective,
Mike:
I think we've made significant progress. It's funny today, this morning, Bell shipped me eight massive boxes for balance talk. I do a lot of events during awareness days and months and weeks and and all. And the delivery arrived. But if we look at things like Bell, Let's Talk Day, just as an example, I think we I think it's been around for maybe 2022, years ish now, but corporations weren't talking about mental health before and and many organizations weren't. So we have made significant progress. There's still so much work to do now, I just made a post this week about the prime minister's resignation, because our campaign was I went to Ottawa and met the Prime Minister and and and the post really focused on what has been done within mental health and, and, you know, 988 which is Canada's national suicide prevention hotline that was implemented just, You know, a year ago. So you know, now, if you know people who are in crisis, who are struggling, who really just need someone to talk to, they they have that, and that has come in, you know, just recently, so we have made significant progress. Mental health is is so underfunded across the board, as as our, as our, as our many organizations, but specifically mental health. So no, I think we are making progress. And the more that we have these conversations, the more it's normalized, the more the more the organizations that are here to support individuals, they can benefit from that. So somehow, I think we are, we are making some headway on the right track.
Evan:
So how did your perception of the disability community change when this happened,
Mike:
absolutely so no, I think you know, prior to this, I I had no, I had my my thoughts and my, my. Perceptions of the disability community and what that looked like, and, and, and, and that did not include me. That was, you know, I, you know, I looked at the disability community as as you know, people, people in wheelchairs. And I didn't recognize that, you know, I didn't give it much thought, and I didn't, at the time, realize that, yes, there are invisible disabilities, there are there are invisible, and then there are visible, and and, and then, you know, the different kinds, and how this, how this affects people and and you know, no, it's, it's been a huge learning experience. When I had my paddle boarding business, one of my favorite things that I did, I shut down the business on Friday nights, and I worked with an organization called Autism Ontario, which was a provincially run organization In Ontario for families and persons who have autism and, and, and I did a lot of research and, and I really want, I've always been community oriented, and one of my favorite things was partnering with them. So, so on Friday nights, families would have the opportunity to come out on the water with with me and my business and and after doing a lot of research before even approaching them, I came to the conclusion, with with all of my reading, that that people with autism respond really well to to water, so So by bridging this paddle boarding with them, it was, it was a way, but no, that experience was probably One of my first, my very first experience within the disability community was with the Canadian National Institute for the Blind. I did my high school Co Op with the CNIB back in the very late 90s, early 2000s and I worked with their with their marketing team, and that was kind of my first experience with the disability community. And this year, it kind of came full circle. I just did three, three events with the Canadian National Institute for the Blind in Toronto and Halifax and in Edmonton, speaking at their events as a person with a disability. So it was very interesting, you know, going go, you know, being a high school student, and then, and then, many years later, developing my own disabilities and going and speaking at their organization. It was very true, very interesting.
Evan:
So, that would have been no in terms of your the physical disability that you, that you experienced through this, this syndrome, what would like did you have much of an impression about, you know, how accessible is society? Did you feel or see any limitations and go like i This is so weird to me now, because this was so easy before, and now it's not?
Mike:
Absolutely…so vertigo. Will people who have mobility challenges, who don't use wheelchairs struggle all the time. I remember the first time that I really noticed it. You know, aside from going through the recovery and using a cane to walk and and holding on to someone while they were taking me to my appointments. The first, you know, the core memory, I did an interview with the CBC, and I had to go downtown Toronto. I live just on the outskirts. I had to go downtown. And I came out of that interview. I You, downtown, busy day, and all of a sudden it felt like I was in an earthquake, and I didn't know what to do, because that had never happened to me while I was on my own before, and I had to grab. Grab the walls to support myself, and I've noticed it at different different events. You know, you go over stimulation and sensories, my senses are heightened. So even though I have hearing loss, I also have amplified hearing in my other ear now. So you know, when I go to a concert, I have to wear earplugs in the one ear. Or, you know, the the flashing lights can become too much. So the importance of having sensory rooms or quiet rooms for for persons who, who need to maybe just check out for 1010, minutes, half an hour, just go rest and then kind of restabilize and and then go and integrate back into the activity that they were doing. Is, is, is really important, and I've really seen the need for that in in the past few years.
Evan:
Okay, so we're gonna do one last question about sort of this stuff, and then we're gonna get into more of your the other media that you're getting involved in. So did you ever see yourself as an advocate and doing speaking engagements like this? And how does this compare to your previous life? I sometimes I want, I want to sort of shape this question a little bit, because I, you know, I've heard from other people who've gone through these life changing events where they feel like their life is better because of it?
Mike:
Absolutely, absolutely, no, I agree with that. It's very fulfilling. It's very rewarding. I never saw myself as I gave you know, I went to college for marketing and public relations communications. Yeah. So,
so I were, I worked in a public relations agency in Toronto, and eventually left that. But the reason I went into intra entrepreneurship, you know, I bridged my love of communications and marketing with with people and fitness and and spending it with people and learning about them and their stories. And you know, you I wouldn't just go out and teach someone how to paddleboard. I go out and and have conversations with people, and that's what kept it fresh and kept it fun. Today, I get to travel across the country and work with different organizations and companies and the same thing, connect with with people. And usually after I come off stage or or whatever they they come up with me and and they share their story, and it allows them to to kind of give, gives them space to to acknowledge what, what they've been through. So that's that's incredibly rewarding, and and I get a lot of satisfaction from from being able to do that. Did I ever imagine doing it? No, I did a. I did a in my college course. I i had a class called presentations, and I wasn't that good back then. I've had to bring in a team of, you know, professionals who who specialize in this, to help build out frameworks and and help help me become better, so so that it actually lands properly. But now, if you were to tell my, you know, my presentations teacher from back then he'd probably hang Oh, my goodness, what he what's he doing?
Evan:
So now we, we touched on it a little bit in the beginning. Of course, one of the big things you've done since, since this syndrome affected your life, is you've paddle boarded across all five great lakes. Now that's That is no small feat. How did that all come together?
Mike:
Right? So I started volun. I was volunteering with jack.org and then doing different events to help them.
I built a platform and and profile, and I decided to leverage that and and bring attention to mental health. So I started working with jack.org and. And, and they were wonderful. And, and we built these, these events, and then all of a sudden, COVID hit, and, and so, you know, no events anymore. So we just so I thought about it, and I thought, well, we could still do an event. We just can't bring people together. We just can't bring people together like and I thought, well, I could try to cross. You know, many years ago, Marilyn bells swam across Lake Ontario and in in the 60s and and, and she inspired, she inspired so many swimmers to this day to go from New York State to Toronto and to do that swim. And I thought, well, we can try that on a paddle board. I think the I, you know, I'm back on the board now, and we could train and build this campaign. And so we did and, and ultimately what happened was we got halfway across, and it was called for, for weather and and we raised a lot of money, and we raised a lot of awareness, and but we didn't make it. And, and so I kind of had to go away and and lick my wounds and, and when I came, I had meetings behind the scenes with people and, and I said, you know, how, how far did we go? And they said, You did. You did 76 kilometers. And then I started looking at Vicky Keith's crossings from the Great Lakes, and I realized that her longest crossing was 74 kilometers, and that was the crossing of Lake Huron and and I thought, well, we we, we just went the wrong way. Most people go across, like Ontario, a much shorter route, and we did the long route, and it got camp like the weather, the weather kibosh did so. So we planned this, and then I kind of announced it. And I think everybody was just like, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, okay, you didn't make it across one. So there you're going to do five. And, but no, we designed it so that we were going to do the shortest first, and that was Lake Erie. And we were just going to build them up over a series of months and, and we developed, ultimately, developed this kind of three and a half month campaign around crossing lakes Erie Huron, Superior, Lake Michigan, and finally, Lake Ontario into my hometown.

BC Artist and Author Creates Kids' Books that Focus on Diversity

Roz Maclean is a wonderful artist who hails from the Comox Valley. She has turned her passion and vision into a successful line of children's books that teach inclusion and diversity. www.rozmaclean.com 
 
TRANSCRIPT
 
Evan:
welcome back to DDA encouraging abilities podcast. I'm your host. DDA communications manager Evan Kelly, today, we're talking with Roz McLean now Roz is a local award winning author of children's books that deal a lot with diversity, communications, emotions and inclusion, which, of course, is right up Didier's alley. Roz is also a visual artist and illustrator and an educator in the Comox Valley here in British Columbia. She likes to investigate ideas of human nature, diversity, relationships, community, mental health, interconnection and the natural world through an anti oppressive and LGBTQ and inclusive feminist lens. They've written a couple of books illustrated even more, in addition to having a portfolio of artwork that covers abstract ink drawings animals, one set of works called insufficient arts art, rather which focuses on British Columbians with disabilities. That and more can be found at Roz mclean.com and I'll say this a couple of times, it's Roz with NAC mclean.com
Roz. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Roz:
Yeah, thanks so much for having me now.
Evan:
I always begin my podcast with you know, people I've never met before. So tell me a little bit about a little bit about yourself?
Roz:
Well, yeah, I'm a children's book author, illustrator, and I'm on Vancouver Island in the Comox Valley on the traditional territories of the Comox people. I have a dog. I live here with my husband.
I like to go in the forest, yeah, I don't know. It's, it's, it's funny to try to sum yourself up.
Evan:
I mean, you, you obviously do a lot of art. Art is your is that you're like, the number one passion in your life.
Roz:
Ah, I think, I mean, it's definitely been a common thread throughout my life, and it's funny, I guess when your passion becomes like your job, because it is my passion, and now it's also my job. So it doesn't always feel so passionate, but it's been a really common, consistent, yeah, thing in my life that I've always turned to and enjoyed doing is that something you studied in the past,
I'm really lucky that I grew up in a really, like, arts and rich environment with my family. My parents are both artists, and my mom worked at like, arts umbrella when I was growing up, so do have classes there. And I grew up in North van as well, and they had, like, lots of enrichment stuff going on in their school district. And then I also went to Emily Carr and SFU for a little bit. I didn't finish up degrees there, but I was there for a little while. And then, yeah, and then I'll just take classes, like, here and there. It took, like, infection course one time. So I'm always learning, yeah, and because, it's because
Evan:
I look at your art on your your portfolio on Instagram and stuff like that. And it's, it's, it's, you run a lot of different styles, and it seems like quite a bit of different mediums. I just love your your ballpoint pen work. It's really, really detailed and very realistic. So you've got some obviously, influence from all over the place, and not just one particular, particular medium or style.
Roz:
Yeah, yeah. All over the place is a really great way to describe it. That's how I feel a lot of the time. I'm very much like, Oh, what about this? They're like, Ah, I could do that. And it's very like, kind of counterbalancy, like, I'll work on something really detailed for a while, then I'll be like, Oh man, I really need to, like, feel like I want to do something more loose and abstract. So yeah, all over the place is a great, great way.
Evan:
You mentioned your your work. It's your passion has become your work. So is this a full time thing for you?
Roz:
Whether books, yep, yep, I'm author, illustrating is what I'm up to these days, which is amazing. I don't know. Not many people can say that that's that's quite an accomplishment. Yeah, I feel really lucky, very grateful.
Evan:
So what inspires you?
Roz:
Definitely, like life experience. And I think, like, I have a lot of big feelings about like the world.
Evan:
I mean, the election just happened in the US. I don't know when this podcast will be coming out, but it happened, like, a couple days ago and like, so you know that it brings up all these big ceilings, and it
can be really hard to know what to do with all of that, and to feel very
Roz:
Yeah, to for me, I can get kind of like, stuck. And and so art isa place to kind of put that energy and all those feelings and kind of the dreams that I have, and I know many people have, for like, hey, things could be different and better. So I think I'm really inspired by by envisioning just better possibilities.
And I'm also really inspired just by like ideas of connection, like connection to nature, like I am, where I am right now. There's like, tons of forests and ocean and wildlife and everything, which feels really great, but yeah, nature is also always been something that I found really inspiring and awe inspiring,
yeah, and I've inspired also by other artists. Like, it's, it's just really cool to see what people do. And it's always, yeah, I'm, I'm often blown away by other artists too, and it's very invigorating.
Evan:
Yeah, we're, we actually run a very robust art program through DDA for for a lot of our adult clients, and I'm just, they just took part in possibilities. Now, possibilities is another organization here on the lower mainland, and they do an annual art show and sale every year inclusion. They call the inclusion art show and sale and, yeah, stuff our clients come up with, and other people with disabilities, and specifically for the disability community, the stuff they come up with just absolutely mind blowing. And it's, and it's, obviously, it's very affordable art, and it's, you know, I would always encourage people to come to DDA website. We've got a lot of our artists showcase there as well.
Roz:
So that's really cool. Yeah, absolutely. Now your books deal a lot with inclusion and diversity. Why is this so important to you?
Roz:
Um, I think the idea of inclusion and, yeah, diversity, they've been a really, like, core care throughout my life, and, like, my family's life. My older brother has an intellectual disability and and Yeah, and so we him, and I went to school in like, the 90s, and inclusion was like a very new idea. And so I really watched my brother and my family, like navigate that and do a lot of advocacy work, and yeah, to just see the bumps that would come up and the limits and the barriers that were in the way to inclusion and acceptance and to just kind of come up against all these, like old ideas. So that was just something I think that's like very core to, like, all of my memories.
And then I also ended up working in schools as a special education assistant and intervener. And intervener is someone who works with students, students and individuals who are deaf, blind and and yeah. And that was another area where I just got to see, like, all the possibilities that I encountered with the students I was working with,
yeah. Yeah. And then also, kind of, like, what structures are in the way in those school experiences that I came across. So I think that, like throughout all of that, and throughout just like what I've been like, you know, reading and learning and everything I just, I have this, like, very core belief that, like, every person has value and and diversity is very valuable. And these kind of, like norms of,of like abledness And like, just expecting people to be one way that's like, this super productive way, like, it's just, it's not good for anybody. But also, you know, I see how many people get left behind andand aren't cared for under that scenario. So, yeah, it's just like, it's in my heart. So I just, I feel it and I think about it.
Evan:
Well, that's great. So what is the inspiration? You know, we'll get right into your books here. Like, what is the the inspiration behind more than words, that's, that's, that's more of your newest, newest one, isn't it?
 
 
Roz:
Yeah, yeah, that's the most recently released book I have. And so the full title is more than words, so many ways to see what we mean. And the inspiration for that really came from working in school. I worked in vancouver public schools for 11 years. And yeah, like I said, So supporting students with disabilities and who are deaf, blind and so communication was, like a very recurring theme like that was especially students who are deafblind. Part of that role was figuring out communication systems that were like, especially for how those kids were interacting with the world, andyeah, and then so. And then the other part of that was like, communicating with the rest of the class and the rest of the school and the rest of the staff about, like, okay, like, this is how the students communicate.
And so there are the specifics of that that are unique to whoever is, you know, using alternative communication. But then there are also those, like, general conversations. It's like, yeah, like, we don't just talk by talking. We we communicate in all these different ways, and that's really normal, like we all do that. And it's also, you know, normal and common for there to be people who don't communicate through talking.
And then part of it too was Yeah, so I really wanted to normalize that, and then I really wanted to provide something for educators who are in those space, who might not feel super confident to like lead those conversations all on their own, like they might not feel like they had all the knowledge or tools, but they might still want to have those conversations. And of course, you know, like a teacher might not have a student who is non speaking in their class, but maybe there's students in the school, or just in their community, there's people, and so they want to have those conversations, and then so I think a book is just a really easy way to start having those conversations and start discussions now talk about the main character In this in the book more than words.
Evan:
Oh yeah. Is this person? Yeah, because I don't have the book in front of me. Is they? Are they deaf, blind or communication in some other way?
Roz:
Oh, no. So yeah, that's great question. His name is Nathan, so he's a young boy, and the premise with Nathan, it's a book starts and it says that Nathan doesn't say much, but he has a lot on his mind, and so we never really learn why Nathan doesn't say much. And I wanted to leave that open like it could be because Nathan has a communication disability, and it could be because Nathan's really anxious. It could be because maybe Nathan doesn't know English, so I wanted to leave that open. But the way that Nathan, he's really interested in, in building, or like digging puddles in the in the schoolyard, in like with the rain when it comes like to to make canals and everything and connect them. And so he kind of tries to reach out to friends to play with them, but they don't really like get it.
And then through his story, we are also introduced to all these other kids in the school who communicate in these different ways. So, you know, there's things like the iPad or sign language, or even just like wearing different kinds of clothes or or drawing or painting. So, yeah, and then, so eventually he he does make connections with other students, but it's in a bit of a non traditional way.
 
Evan:
And so how do you like? How take me through that process? How do you formulate this idea, from from start to finish, where you know, how do you develop the story and and then, of course, the accompanying artwork to go along with it.
Roz:
Yeah, yeah. So I've, I've found that every book is different. That I've been working on for more than words that was actually had many different shapes before it finally landed on the story that that's in the book right now. So what I really wanted to do is, have, you know, a main character, but also have it not just be the main character story. So I really wanted to find a way to, like, kind of traveled through all these different modes of communication, and so it actually was quite tricky to figure out how to tie those things together. It's not really a common way of telling stories in published like, and the kind of thing that comes up when you're like, submitting things to publishers is, like, they do have, like, you know, specific formats they're that they're more used to and comfortable with. So it took a couple of iterations and a couple of, like, sending it out, and then the publisher would be like, Oh, I like this. But like, Could this be different? And so there were, like, different characters and different it started out much more simple. It started out with it was more just kind of like, this is what communication is about. And then like, kind of just going through these different modes. And then eventually it became more and more like main character driven. Actually, once I did get connected with my publisher, they actually, we decided to make the book longer so there was more room. Yeah, because yeah. So this is getting in the weeds a little bit. But, like, often publishers 32 Yeah, I know often a book is 32 pages long, so when you like, submit, you kind of, like, plan on that. But they offer, yeah, yeah, yeah, for a kid's book, for a picture book, but they were able to make it 48 pages, so that gave us a lot more room to balance Nathan's story and the rest of the content of the book. So yeah, it was a lot of, yeah, yeah. By the by the last kind of draft, I, like, knew about Nathan, but I didn't like, exactly know his, like, journey in the story and how that was kind of luck.
Evan:
Now, given a lot of back and forth, would you at all, pardon me, be drawing on your experiences as a teacher's assistant in Vancouver and stuff like that.
Roz:
Oh, totally Yeah. Like Nathan's digging pedals in the field, and that's like, such a vivid memory of just remembering being out of recess with the kids, and they're all in there, in the pedals with their shovels and whatnot. So yeah, it's very flashing back to that work. No, I don't want to ask about how the story ends or anything like that. Don't want to give anything away. People can buy the book.
Evan:
Is a happy ending, so that's good. And you've got a lot of press on this. This was even featured on CBC kids, wasn't it?
 
 
Roz:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's really fun. Now, is that something you you help do, or is that something that, does the publisher sort of take that on and connect the dots?
Roz:
That's a great question. They are definitely they kind of take on that whole side. I don't know the exact mechanisms, but that was just something that I got, like, an email about one day, it's like, Oh, that's great. So stuff like that, it's always like a wonderful surprise, yeah, that always helps. Help, hopefully helps, yeah. Now, in terms of, like, sort of,
Evan:
Now, back to the to the sort of, the research and the communication for this particular book, did you have to do any sort of research on different types of communication for people who might be non verbal.
Roz:
Yeah, I did, yeah, because there was a communication system that I was like familiar with from working in schools, and then one area that I especially ended up researching was spelling to communicate. We have a family friend who, he lives in the US, but he spells to communicate, and, yeah, he's autistic and non speaking and, or minimally speaking, yeah, and, and he, he like writes about that and shares about his journey and how that kind of looks. And then so through the introduction of that, I went, and I like researched spelling to communicate a lot more. So that was, I think, the main area where I like it was more brand new to me. I was like, Oh, I hadn't really heard about this before, and I don't, I hadn't come across that in my work before, so I don't know how common that is here
Evan:
So moving on, a little bit of might be jumping around a little bit in terms of your your books library here, yeah, I am older, I am new. I am odd. I am new. Oh, I am odd. I am odd, I am new. Yeah. Now you didn't write this one. This was a book based on an autistic author, Benjamin Giroux. Was this something of a collaboration? Like, why this particular poem?
Roz:
Yeah. So we actually we're connected. We share an agent. So Benjamin had written this poem, and it like, really took off. And like, so a little background is that, for the listeners, is that Benjamin was 10 years old when he originally wrote the poem, and it was a school assignment, yeah. And so it kind of like took off, like on the internet and went viral, and he was like in the news and everything and so, and it was about his experience being autistic and how that felt for him. And it's a really beautiful rhyming poem, and quite touching and profound. And so they shared an agent, and they were looking to partner with an illustrator to like, pitch the book, yeah, so I ended up making up a couple pieces for that, and then we pitched it around. And then I got picked up.
Yeah, they did, yeah, they did give, like, input on the art before we moved forward and everything. So it was collaborative, like, a little bit like, it was more collaborative than like, if people, if authors and illustrators work together through a publisher, they usually don't really talk at all about the artwork. So it was more collaborative than that, but it was, it was matching his existing poem and creating art for it.
Evan:
Well, that sounds that sounds good.
Once again, for listeners that that book is called I Am odd. I am new by Benjamin. So if you're talking about 42 pages, that seems like an awful lot of artwork. How long does it take you to develop all the artwork for these books?
Roz:
A long time. Yeah, so I work, and it does depend on the book, but I work with traditional media, and I also will scan it in, and then do a bit of digital work as well, but it'll take me, I'd say, like, at least, like, six months to do everything to do, like the refs, and then they approve it, and then you make the artwork, and then you there's a bit of back and forth. So it always takes a substantial amount of time.
Evan:
Now, as an artist, do you sometimes submit some art for a book and they go, No, do it again. We don't like it.
Roz:
Oh, well, luckily, the system we have is I'll submit like sketches, and they'll respond to the sketches, and then so if things aren't working, then they let me know at that stage. And so by the time it's finished, there might be like, a little tweak, like, oh, this area needs to be better to read the text or whatever. But like, by the time I submit the final art, I'm not being told to redo anything.
Evan:
So, another book coming out, together a forest.
When's that slated for for publication? Or is it out already next spring? Next spring, next spring. 2025, yeah.
Roz:
So together, it is available for pre order now.
Evan:
Oh, is it okay? Good, good, good. So tell me a little bit about this book.
Roz:
Yeah. So this book is, it's about a class, and they go on a field trip to a forest, and there's one main character named Joy, and when they get to the forest, this class has an assignment from their teacher, and they have to pick one thing from the forest that they really like, resonate with, and they're supposed to draw that thing. And it's like a class art project. And so all the kids are choosing one part of the forest, so like mushrooms, or like ferns or like a squirrel. And as they choose,
we spend a bit of time with them, and we learn about kind of how they're relating to that element, and also how it it shows something about, you know, their personality or like, how they relate to the world.
And it also like highlights, either like an element of like neurodiversity or disability. And then joy, the main character, she has a really hard time knowing what to choose. So that's kind of part of the story.
And yeah, and then things happen. And then there's the story. But that's the main premise, nice. And that's kind of is tying in, sorry, it's kind of tying in like E College, ecological diversity and and human diversity. It's coming, covering some important bases.
Evan:
So yeah, now once again, before I even go further, these books are of course, are they just available on Amazon? How do people get a hold of them?
Roz:
Um, wherever books are sold. People can get them if a bookstore doesn't have them, which they don't always, they can be ordered. So indie bookstores can order them too. And like, yes, book, the books are available on Amazon, just wherever you buy books.
Evan:
And do you have links available on your website as well?
Roz:
I do, yeah, yeah, and on the Instagram as well, excellent, the most active on my Instagram, but
Evan:
We're following you now, by the way. And once again, that is Roz mclean.com And yet another book slated for publication in 2026 correct, a mystery, a wonder,
Roz:
Yeah, yeah, that's the one I'm working on right now, and what's literally painting away this morning. No, I'm in the middle, oh, process, yeah. It's okay. Sometimes they need break. It's what you probably saw was the like announcement for the publisher acquiring that title.
Evan:
Yeah, yeah, in the thick of it. Do you want to talk about that one? You just want to leave it under wraps for now.
Roz:
Oh yeah, I can talk about it a little bit. So the mystery wonder is, it's basically, it's more like a poem, I guess, and it explores all these different vignettes of darkness. So like, you know, nocturnal animals, or like the deep sea, or like caves or watching shooting stars, so it's, it's going through all these kind of different scenarios, and, yeah, and hopefully revealing some ways of kind of being with the dark and the unknown and uncertainties that are, that are maybe new for readers,
and so that maybe they're Not so scary after all, kind of a thing, yeah, yeah. And it's not super, not super overt with that message, but yeah, that's, I think, definitely one of the takeaways.
Evan:
That's good, and that's, that's your that's for 2026,
Roz:
Or a solid year from that, good, good, good, yeah, yeah. So it's really interesting. The publishing process just takes a long time.
Evan:
Yeah, well, sounds like it, sounds like it. And do they just, this is more of a technical publishing question, because I just have no idea about this stuff. When they, when they, when they, they, when the publisher has, okay, we've got your book. We're gonna print, like, So and so amount of copies, or do they just sort of do it by order?
Roz:
Oh, I think they print a number of copies, like how? And I don't know how they make that decision, but they, yeah, they print a bunch of copies, and then they try to sell those. And then I think they can do a reprint if they need to,
Evan:
Good, good, yeah, well, I'm hoping it's in the millions.
Roz:
Oh, yeah, that'd be great.
Evan:
Okay, so the one thing I mentioned in the at the intro, this is the insufficient art project. Tell me about that. What was that all about?
Roz:
Yeah, yeah. So that was in 2021 is when that got released. So the insufficient art project was a series of portraits and interviews I did. And it was through a grant that I got a digital original grant from the Canadian Arts Council Council. And it's a series of portraits and interviews of people, indeed in BC who either had experience or relying on the disability assistance benefit. And so, as you can probably guess by the title, it was about that not being enough for people to survive on. And so, yeah, it exists as a website, insufficient Art project.ca,
Evan:
It's also insufficient art project on Instagram, so you can see an e book and on the website, there are the interviews in the portraits as well. No, you've also done, I mean, your artwork runs the gamut, as we talked before, the, you know, detailed ink drawings to your piece with hands, all your hands forming the, all the letters of American Sign Language, which is really, really detailed. Two simple, colorful, butter, fun little butterflies and stuff, and the portraits of the now, the portraits of the BC coalition of poverty reductions members and staff. Was that part of the insufficient art project? Or was that something different? It was a different thing, but it was related in that they saw the insufficient art project, and then they wanted to commission portraits in that style.
Roz:
So, yeah, I think, I believe they had a grant as well. So they wanted to highlight their membership and the people doing activism through portrait part.
Evan:
And then what did they do with those portraits?
Roz:
They have them on maybe, I don't know. I think some of them have them on their website. But also it was so that the membership could use the portrait, and some of the membership shows to get, like, photography portraits. So it was so that they could use them in, like, an activism context. So it's like if they were sending out something for press or or interfacing, I guess, on like a public level, that they could have that to represent themselves.
 

Life Skills - Langley Mom Creates a Guide Inspired by Her Son

Inspired by her son, a Langley mom creates a book to help people with cognitive delays navigate daily life. 
 
TRANSCRIPT
Evan:
Welcome back to DDA. Is encouraging abilities podcast. I am your host. DDA, communications, manager, manager, Evan Kelly joining me in the studio, which is, of course, is always a nice change over the phone. Is Stevie artemenko, am I getting your name?
Stevie:
Very, very close. Yeah. Artemenko, artemeco, close.
Evan:
Stevie is a local mom who has three children, each with some various health issues. She also works as a special education assistant. Is a writer and an advocate for the disability community. On the writer's side, she has produced a book to help with cognitive issues. Plan, sorry, to help people with cognitive issues plan and organize their days and develop life skills as they get older. It's called Life Skills, checks, checklists and guidance to help navigate everyday life. It is available on Amazon. So Stevie, thanks for joining me today.
Stevie:
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really happy to be here for sure. So I always start these off with my guests telling a little bit more about themselves your local so let's start there. Well before becoming a mom, I did a lot of traveling. I love travel, and then I worked in radio as a copywriter and doing voiceovers. And one of the radio stations that I worked at, I was a creative director, and I got shut down. Everyone got laid off. And so, yeah, yeah. And so I thought, What do I want to do? What's something I really want to do? And one of my bucket list things was to go work for a nonprofit overseas. So I ended up working for an organization called Crossroads, and I ended up in Fiji as a teacher, and I had no background in teaching. Didn't know what I was doing. It was like, here's your class, they don't speak your language, and that was how it started. But thankfully, I had a wonderful roommate teacher who helped me.
Evan:
So what were you teaching? Then, everything, everything, Science, Math, English as a second language?
Stevie:
Well, basically, I mean, when it came down to me, what I was teaching, I was just teaching basically English and some math. It was a grade three class, but it was quite funny, because clearly there was a language barrier, and the kids would just be like, Yes, miss, Yes, miss, and half the time, I don't think they understood anything I was saying.
Evan:
So what do they teach in Fiji? Or not teach? What are they? What's the language in Fiji? It's Fijian. Fijian. It's its own language. Yeah, Pardon my ignorance.
 
 
Stevie:
No, no, that's okay. Um, so, yeah, so, and I only picked up a little bit of the language and but it was amazing. So that totally inspired me to come back and want to work with kids. And, you know, radio is really fun and great and all that. But it wasn't, you know, kind of inspiring me. And so I decided to go back to school to become a special education assistant, and that's where it kind of all started. And then, yeah, after my youngest son was born with all his special needs, then I quit all my jobs to focus on him.
Evan:
Yeah, right, right. So tell me a little bit about your youngest son then.
Stevie:
So I have three kids, and they all have health challenges. So my oldest is 24 and he's about to become a dad himself, which is really strange and surreal. Very happy for the first time. Grandma for you. Yes, yes. I was still like grandma. I like Nana better, but he had various health issues. He when he was a teenager, he was diagnosed with a congenital heart condition and a blood clotting disorder, so major surgeries, and it was really hard on him as a teenager and the family, and then my daughter, who's 23 was diagnosed with celiac a few years ago, so she's trying to navigate that, but she's on the road to becoming a registered holistic nutritionist, which is exciting, yeah. And then my son, Caden, who was the inspiration for this book, he was born at 25 weeks, at one and a half pounds. That's small, yeah. So he was considered an extreme preemie. He had major infections and very, very, very sick baby. So he was in the hospital in the NICU for about six months at Children's and Lions Gate.
Evan:
Can I ask you a little bit about that? Because, because that sort of aligns with my own life. I have an identical twin brother, okay? And we were born two months premature back in 1971 right? And so we were three pounds when we were born and given a 50, 5050, chance survival, yep. And it's, it's interesting, because my mom was a child psychologist at the time. And my father was a, well, he was a GP, but he was also, I don't know if he was a psychiatrist at that time, but he ended up finishing as a psychiatrist. And back in 1970 they Firstly, they didn't know my mom was carrying twins because her heart beats me insane. They didn't have ultrasound and stuff. Were that old. Old. But the interesting thing is that my parents brought a bunch of literate literature for it, because infants at that stage in the time you they're put into an incubator, and you weren't, you weren't able to touch them, yeah, and so my parents brought forward all this literature, but that if you are allowed to handle them even in the incubator, yeah, pardon me that they have a better drive. And I was just wondering, was that your experience
Stevie:
So so Caden was he was so he was 25 weeks. So at that point, his skin was so fine, it was like, almost like onion paper. So I wasn't allowed to even, you know, I wanted to stroke him and reach in through the incubator, but I wasn't allowed to do that because his skin was so fragile. So I could just tap him. And then it was three weeks. I had to wait three weeks before I was able to hold him. And they, I can't even remember the term that they used nesting, but yeah, so the first time I held him was three weeks after he was born, and amazing experience. But yeah, that was a part of the ritual to hold them. Because, yeah, they did thrive. They needed that, the warmth and the sound of their mother's heartbeat and touch, yeah. So, so important. So and it, it meant so much to me, and I think it clearly that's, that's part of the protocol now, yeah.
Evan:
And they Yeah. And then that was at Lions Gate hospital, and my understanding is the story went is that the they actually helped the hospital change their policy on that.
Stevie:
Well, that's how it was at children. So that's amazing that they were, they were instigators of that, because that's huge kangaroo. That's what they can kangaroo. Yeah, no, it was so glad that they did that, because to be apart from your child is excruciating, you know, especially when they're in the incubator and stuff. So to have that daily time with them was so important.
Evan:
so tell me a little bit about more, a little bit more about Caden's physical issues.
Stevie:
yeah, so he, so he was diagnosed super, super sick in the hospital. He ended up with a feeding tube, couldn't feed on his own that was removed after about a year, but then was later diagnosed with an intellectual disability, autism, mild cerebral palsy, hearing loss and a severe nut allergy. But wow, has he come a long way, and sorry, he said, Oh, he's 17 now, so he's almost an adult himself. Yeah, I think he's more ready than I am.
Evan:
That's always the case, right? I've got a 16 year old, yeah, just turned 16 yesterday, and I've got an 18 year old as well, who's now starting college for the first time. I need more time, yeah, totally. So then I stopped feeding him, so that's good. No more food for you. No no more growing so, you know, I guess we're both parents, so having all three kids with various health issues, that must have been a bit tough.
Stevie:
It was tough. I mean, there was a lot of times, you know, I was totally scared, lost, you know, felt like I didn't know what I was doing. But thankfully, you know, I did have a lot of support, you know, from the hospitals and their transition programs. And I really, I really, really learned to reach out and ask for help and know that, you know, I can't do this on my own. And you know, the days that I was, you know, crying or pulling my hair out or whatever, you know, those are the times when you you reach out, whether it's professionals or friends or family like that, to me is, you know, it helps you to be a better parent, and it's also self care. So if I, if I didn't do that, I don't know, I ended up about 10 years ago, I guess, well, more than 10 years ago, maybe 12 years ago, I ended up quite sick. I thought it was the flu, and it turned out I had severe pneumonia, and I was admitted to the hospital right away. I was intubated. I was in a coma for a couple of weeks. Oh, wow. And that was a big, big lesson for me, that I was doing too much, you know, trying to be there all the time for each of my kids and the family and just go, go, go. And after that, I really learned to focus on making sure I was okay, so that I could take care of my kids.
Evan:
Yeah, it starts there first, right? I mean, that's, that's something we talk about a lot here, and sort of try to champion that self care, even, even for our employees who are looking after people with disabilities, you know, for eight hours, absolutely that can, that can wear you down, wear you down. And that's how, you know, I I'm so fortunate. I feel, I feel blessed sometimes that, you know my kids, there's other than. Being them, being ornery and combative, it's I don't have to worry about a whole lot, you know, I'm very fortunate that way.
Stevie:
Yeah, I think it's so important. And I think the dynamic is changing that way, where, you know, people are realizing that, yeah, if I don't take care of me, I can't, you know, be the best for my kids or my family. So absolutely.
Evan:
And one of, you know, one of the, one of the problems that in the caregiving field is in DDA, and any other Association like that, like us, is actually finding people to do the job. And we see this dwindling, you know? And so again, we talked about AI for a little bit, and the we're actually developing a an autonomous sort of robot that can, it's actually still today, roaming around one of our more intensive care places, and it can interact with clients and oh my gosh, you know, notice doors open and things like that. So that's, that's something that we're developing, because my boss, Evan, recognizes that we're going to have a shortfall of support, you know, and, and we're always trying to sort of recruit men as well, because this is typically, these jobs typically fall to women, and we gotta get men to understand that it's important we have men that we're looking after who need that connection for. Oh, totally. And it's something I bring up from time and time again, and how important that is, anyway, tell me about your book.
Stevie:
Well, so as many parents, children you know, who have challenges with executive function skills or organization or memory, visual schedules are typically used at quite a young age. And that was something that was, you know, suggested to me by community professionals as well. But even before my youngest I was kind of writing out steps for my younger kids, just routine steps so that I wasn't always the one that was going, oh, did you brush your teeth? Did you get this? Did you get that? So I would be making these lists. And, you know, my kids, my younger kids, you know, when they were younger with, you know, laugh, Oh, Mom, you and your lists and stuff, but, but it really helped them establish a sense of confidence and independence. Made them feel empowered so that I wasn't kind of always over over their shoulder, you know, telling them what to do. And so now, as my youngest son is transitioning to adulthood, you know, I thought, okay, it would be great for him to have a book of all inclusive routines and steps and kind of essentials. And so I thought, well, you know, I'll see if I can find something online. And everything I found online was either too complicated or too wordy. And I knew that my son would not respond to that. I know he would be, you know, I'll forget it. I can't read all that. No, no, no, no. So I created this guide to be very simple as something that people could just refer to. You know, I have a quick read on a certain page or a certain routine, and simple, simple, simple, and then they can, you know, check off each step as they do it, or just refer to it. And that was kind of how it started. And yeah, so I thought, Okay, I'm going to create my own and then, and then friends and family and professionals, other professionals that I knew, said, You know, you should try to put this together and get it published. So and So you did, and so I did.
Evan:
Now you'd mentioned trying to find resources online. Did you find that fairly scant?
Stevie:
Nothing, not much. There's, there's a lot online for life skills, for sure, all different demographics. But again, they were just so wordy. And I was very intentional in that I wanted this book to be, I actually call it more of a guide, just that you could visually look at it and go, Oh, okay, I can do that, instead of just reading a bunch of stuff to go along with it, sort of, yeah. So that was kind of my focus.
Evan:
I'm just sort of flipping through it here. Of course, people in podcast land can't see it. There's a there's a few uh images, uh huh. Do you think you want, might want to use, like, is bigger images, or something like that? Didn't want to make it more visual, or anything like that was that, no, I mean, I use the visuals just just as an enhancement. Clearly, this is for someone that's able to read, right?
Stevie:
But, yeah, those were just kind of an enhancement, just to kind of dress it up a bit. I mean, when they're younger, when kids are younger, you know you're using the pick symbols and all that, but I intended it for people that can read.
Evan:
How long did it take to put all this together?
Stevie:
Well, considering it so simple, it took about six months working with the publisher just to get the formatting right, pick up the images, get the wording right and just fine tune the content.
Evan:
And so you went to an actual publisher, Amazon, plus, or is like, how does, how does that?
Stevie:
So they're not, they're not affiliated with Amazon, but they, they work with Amazon, so yeah. And so I worked with them, and they helped me do all the formatting, because that's not one of my strengths, is formatting. So in design, I knew I knew what I wanted, and so they helped me put it together.
Evan:
Yeah. Now your education is in supporting Special Needs is the content of blend of work experience, education and just being a mom of three who needed this kind of
support.
Stevie:
Oh, it's definitely a combination of everything I've learned over the years from, you know, working in the schools, and also just the advice and support I got from various organizations over the years, and then just what I've learned, you know, works with my own kids. There it has, you know, all these lists for managing daily needs and chores and eating right and, you know, being happy.
Evan:
Were there more things you wanted to include? Or how did you dial down this list of stuff?
Stevie:
Yeah, I was very, very intentional in that I wanted it to be basic. I mean, there was so much more I could have added, you know, you know, if I wanted to get into cooking or, you know, how to get dressed or but I was very intentional, and then I wanted it to have what, what I felt were the basic, kind of core essentials for kind of a happy, organized, somewhat organized life, right? Who's, I mean, we're not all super organized, but this is a tool for everybody. Yeah, well, it's funny, yeah, because I've had, I've had, you know, friends and stuff say, you know, I'm getting this for my husband, or I want to use this. Or they usually say, husband, though, which, sorry, guys, no,
Evan:
Well, I could probably use it. And so, so you did have to narrow down the essentials,
Stevie:
Yeah, what I, what I felt were essential. And I, you know, I talked to, you know, Caden about this a little bit too, and to my own kids, and just safety, you know, eating healthy, exercise, you know, and then managing daily life, as far as, like, paying bills and getting groceries and things like that, just, it's very I consider it kind of the essentials. Yeah,
Evan:
Yeah, absolutely. Now, when you're trying to balance teaching practical, practical skills, rather with fostering emotional and social growth,
Stevie:
Yeah, because I think, I think when a person feels more confident in their abilities and what they can do, like taking care of themselves, if it fosters better mental health, you feel, wow, I can do this. You know, I can do this right and and that's why I also included things like being a good friend, or, you know, how to be polite, just as reminders of what that what that looks like.
Evan:
Yeah, absolutely. Now, one of the pages you, I think, and rightfully so, because it's 2024 you mentioned online safety, and it's huge right now, have you run into any issues around that? Because I know I have. I've had, oh, I've had not, not in my immediate family, but my my step brothers, son, yeah, was gaming with somebody in the US, and then all of a sudden, started getting all this Nazi paraphernalia sent to him. It's like, whoa, that's crazy.
Stevie:
Yeah, I know it's Yeah. Unfortunately, we did have an incident with Caden, and we'd had many conversations around online safety. You know, never get out your password and be careful who you're talking to. But this was just recently, because he likes gaming, and this person online with him was saying, you know, Oh, give me your password and we can trade some skins or something, and, and Caden just got oh so excited, and he just didn't even think, and he just gave it out. And right away, the person got back and said, gotcha. And had complete access to all of his profile and everything, and, and likely your credit card attached to it. Thankfully, that wasn't thankfully, but it was. It was devastating to Caden, because it was years of his things that he had bought on that account, like a lot, and he was devastated. And I am not a techie person, not at all. I tried to resolve it with the company. But my oldest son, thankfully, is an IT guy, and he managed to get, you know, the account shut down and then restarted. And it was all good, but huge lesson for Caden, and a big reminder again of never give out passwords. Be careful who you're talking to. When in doubt, shut them down and you. Know, even my dad and myself and stuff, we get tons of phone calls of scammers and all that.
Evan:
So it's like, it's rampant, like I mentioned, my, my, my previous life working at the Better Business Bureau here in Vancouver. It's just the the level of scams and the level they go to to try and get you is unbelievable.
Stevie:
Yeah. And if you're a person that might be a bit more vulnerable. That's even, even more yeah. So, I mean, it was, it was a really good lesson, and so then that was a good time to go over the steps and the reminders in the book about online safety. Yeah. No, it's more than just opening a book, of course.
Evan:
Now, how do you recommend teaching or reinforcing these life skills in everyday settings.
Stevie:
Well, I think it really depends on the individual and what your goals are, but you know, you could, you could go through the entire book initially and just talk about it and then choose one or two routines to start with. Or you don't even have to go through the book and just pick one or two routines to start with. And so what I did with Caden is I went through the whole book, and then right now we're working on morning and nighttime routines. And so in the past, I would be like, Did you brush your teeth? Did you, you know, wash your face? Did you do your puffer Did you now I just Okay, check your morning routine, check your nighttime routine, and he goes right to it, and he checks it, and then I and then I, we're still in the process, but I'll kind of check after but, you know, once I know, I think he's learned that, then we're ready to move on to another routine that I think is applicable to where he's at, like, you know, right now, He's not ready for paying bills. He's not there yet. But, you know, the online safety was a good one to go over, or the morning routine, the nighttime routine, weekly routine might be, you know, doing your laundry. Did you do your laundry this week? And it's on that list, so I think
for reminding me, yeah, need to do my laundry. Yeah, I know right, that that's a very common one with with husbands and men and and the thing is, you know that you can just refer to the routines, but some people like to actually photocopy them or laminate them, and then they actually physically check off it as they do it, because some people really like that sense of check. I did this for Caden. He just likes to look at the page and, okay, yep, yep, yep, yeah, no.
Evan:
Is it? Is it a goal to sort of like Caden, for example, like wean, him off the book in a sense,
Stevie:
I mean, in a perfect world, yes, but I, I think that could take a long time for him. And so the idea is, is that, you know, he can just refer to it when he needs to, but it would be nice. But, I mean, I'm not necessarily expecting that, and that's why I just wanted this book to be like a tool in the tool kit.
Evan:
Do you find that it takes the pressure off you as a parent?
Evan:
Yes, yes, yeah, for sure. That was one of the other reasons why I created it, because I felt like I was, I was kind of constantly nagging him, you know, did you do that? Did you do this? And so now it's now I can just sort of refer to the book. Did you check that? Maybe you should look at that page. And clearly, we're still having ongoing conversations about everything, about safety and being a good friend and eating healthy. We're having those conversations, but this is just a supplement exactly.
Evan:
I mean, my kids are typically developed, I still have those conversations, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's only so much you can do,
Stevie:
Yeah. So this is just like a reinforcer to that, and I know for kids with autism, and my son too, he, he looks at things almost like rules sometimes. And so in that aspect, you know, it'll be like, Oh, it's in the book, you know. So that's kind of like a rule.
Evan:
And so that's helpful, yeah? I sort of brought that question up as it removes you a little bit and gives you some more time and some and your own in your own piece, and perhaps some self care, because it reminds me as like, as I mentioned earlier, my mom was a child psychologist, right? And when my kids were very young, I, you know, I asked her, How do I toilet train? I've never done this, right? Because I was the one who toilet trained my boys, yeah. And she said, All you need is a timer set up for 20 minute intervals, yeah, so that you're not thinking about it all the time. The timer goes off and you go, Hey, let's go to the bathroom. Let's try. Yeah, I had them both trained in an hour.
 
Stevie:
Yeah, wow. My mind, Oh, wow. That's amazing, amazing,dad, but it was.
Evan:
Is, but the whole concept is that it removed my thought process and left it with the timer, whereas this, you know, this book removes the thought process all the time and leaves it with the book. So that, to me, is worth all the tea in China.
Stevie:
So, yeah, and I really, I really wanted whoever's using the book for them to feel empowered, right? For them to feel wow, look, I'm doing this. You know? I can do this. And whether they're looking at the routines, or they've learned it by looking at it so much, then that's kind of the goal.
Evan:
So, yeah, that'sgreat. So can you share an example of a success story from someone who's implemented these strategies from your book?
Stevie:
Well, I've thankfully got really great reviews on Amazon. They're all five star reviews, and here's just one. It's it says it's very well written and easy to use. My son has a mild intellectual disability and has challenges around organization and memory. For him to have visual and easy to read, reminders around everyday life, skills and more, works very well for him. One of the best investments, for sure.
Evan:
Nice and in terms of investment, it's, it's like, what, 10-20 bucks.
Stevie:
It's $19 for the hard copy, and this is, well, this is the, yeah, this is the the book version, oh, the book version. And then the Kindle version is 550 and the Kindle version is actually, I've got it on my phone, and it turned out great, actually, and you slide through it.
Evan:
And so it can really be used on the go, but you've got many places where people can write things. Yeah, I guess you can't write on a Kindle.
Stevie:
No, no.
Evan:
But in your view, what are some common misconceptions about the abilities of people with developmental disabilities.
 
Stevie:
Well, this is something, especially when I had kids, I always, you know, tell them, we all, I think we all have special needs and we all have developmental strengths or challenges. You know, every person is so unique in that way, and so just my feeling is, I think saying developmental disability can be sometimes negative or misleading. You know, for example, someone might, you know, have memory or organizational challenges, but they might be great at math or art or cooking or and so I always think of that, that we all have our own unique developmental stories, right? So that's, that's my thoughts on that
Evan:
And it's interesting too, because, I mean, so many, not just cognitive, but, you know, physical disabilities, so many Canadians now, like 22 or 25% of the population actually identify with a disability. That's a lot of people, especially as we're getting older and living longer and we're going to have more needs. So society in itself, just needs to expand thoughts on this.
Stevie:
And you know, I had a conversation with my oldest son once, he said, he said, It seems like now everyone is getting labeled. Yeah. ADHD, you know, autism, whatever it is. And he said, I don't understand that. And I said, Well, you know, in some ways, you know, being labeled, you don't want that to become the person, right? That's not who they are. But I said, I remember when I was a kid in the classroom, and there might be, you know, someone who had a different way of learning or, but they were, they were, you know, called stupid or slow, or he's weird or, and I said, you know, that's that's not okay. And so at least now we're recognizing that, that people have different challenges. And when I put it to him like that, he was like, oh, okay, that makes sense, yeah, yeah.
Evan:
So, for sure. So the book is fairly new, yeah, I think you published it this year, correct?
Stevie:
Yeah, just in the spring, just in April.
Evan:
Wow. Not too long. So have you, Have you, have you been managed to move some of it into the community, into an audience?
Stevie:
Yeah, so there's, there's so many organizations out there that I think this would be helpful for like, community organizations, educational, health, I've been reaching out to BC children's, because I have contacts there. But it's a slow process. It's trying to get contacts at different organizations that I don't know, so I'm reaching out to all the ones that I do know first, and I have us, and now I have you guys, yes, yeah, and then just sort of spreading the word that way. But it is a slow process because it's just me, but so far, the feedback has been nothing but positive. So I'm really, really grateful for that.
 
Evan:
That's excellent. So overall, what's your big goal for the book?
Stevie:
I'm just really, just hoping that it will help individuals feel more confident and empowered in their you know, daily living and how to live a happy life. And then again, just easing. Of that pressure off the parents or caregivers to help them achieve.

MakeGood - Using the Latest Tech to Create an Accessible World

Noam Platt is the founder of MakeGood, an organization in Louisiana specializing in designing and building devices for people with disabilities. We caught up with him about how new technologies are making it easier and cheaper to build an accessible world.

Accessibility on Vancouver Island

He moved to Canada about 20 years ago from the UK and never left. We chat with accessibility consultant Ramesh Lad who aims to make Vancouver Island accessible to all.
 
TRANSCRIPT
 
00:08Welcome again to DDA's Encouraging Abilities podcast, where we chat about everything disability related. I'm your host, DDA Communications Manager, Evan Kelly. Now we talk a lot about accessibility on this podcast, how things can be done better to level the playing field for people with disabilities, whether physical or cognitive. Now that could mean adopting a universal design concept so that everything we build or create is done with everyone in mind.
00:33Sometimes that's easier said than done. So we need consultants who navigate design beyond meeting building codes, because building codes doesn't necessarily mean it's accessible. It just means it might be relatively safe. So joining me today is accessibility consultant, Ramesh Lad, who hails from Vancouver Island. I came across Ramesh on an ex or Twitter story, if you're still there. So the power of social media is good.
00:57And I was a person with lived experience. Ramesh started step-by-step accessibility consulting in 2018 and has been building his business ever since. So thanks for joining me today, Ramesh. Thanks for giving me the chance to chat. Thank you. No problem. I always like to start things like this. So tell me a little bit about yourself. So where do I start? So I'm basically originally from England. I moved to Canada in 2001.
01:26And I came with the idea of just to live and work out here for about a year, just to get some different experience and to have a different sort of lifestyle. But 22, 23 years later, I'm still here and enjoying Canada, basically. My background is I in England, I worked with youth in schools. Before that, I worked in human resources.
01:54And then when I came to Canada, my first job I had was with BC Paraplegics Association as one of their counsellors. And then from there, I've done various other jobs. Most recent jobs I've had is working with youth at risk here in the Covox Valley. I've also worked on the downtown east side in Vancouver when we lived in Vancouver. So my career history is quite varied.
02:21My personal background is I was affected by the drug thalidomide, which is a drug given to expectant women to alleviate things like morning sickness. But unfortunately, the drug had an impact on the fetus, which left people with various types of disabilities, including limbs missing or short limbs.
02:51And not everyone, sadly, had survived. So in the UK at the moment, there's about 400 people that were affected by thalidomide that are still alive. In Canada, I think it's just under 100 now that are still living and, yeah, living. Now, if you don't mind me asking, Ramesh, how old are you? I'm 62. Okay. You look younger in your photographs.
03:20Thank you. That's good. It's amazing what Photoshop can do. And so, I mean, you know, just checking your profiles and things in your business website, what really got you interested in working with at-risk youth? I think it's just one of those areas I fell into. Like I said, my background was working with youth in England, but mainly in schools and colleges.
03:51So when we moved to the Valley, a position came up, when we moved to the Colmocks Valley, a position came up which was involving working with youth at risk. And I'd already worked with adults at risk, as I was saying earlier, on the downtown Eastside. So this is just sort of following on from that, but specifically working with youth at risk, which is an area that had an interest in, especially as I've worked with youth in the past.
04:18So that was it really, it was just more of a chance that came up here in the Cobox Valley where there was a program run called Blade Runners which is working with youth at risk to try and give them basic skills to allow them to find entry level jobs. So I was working with youth to sort of train them up to get into entry level jobs and then not just train them but also...
04:45working with local employers and local companies to try and get them placed as well. So, but my interest came from my background. Oh, interesting. Now, so Vancouver Island is, you know, of course, a little bit detached from the rest of BC. Do you, how's business? How do you, do you feel like you're making an impact on businesses and design over there? I think I am. It feels like it at the moment. I'm quite busy with mainly educational establishments.
05:14that I'm working with and I've done some work for a couple of senior homes and I've just started working with somebody who wants to improve their home for aging in place. So I think it's taking off. Businesses are a little harder to work with because I think there's the financial barrier that they feel might come up with what they need to do to make their businesses accessible.
05:41I think the other thing is here in the Covox Valley, I don't know if you've been here in recent years, but in Courtney, a lot of the businesses downtown, the buildings are a little older, so they're a bit more difficult to make fully accessible. But I think businesses do try really hard to accommodate everyone. Trevor Burrus Now talk about, tell me a little bit about the cost.
06:10making things accessible is that the cost really is somewhat negligible. And if you're thinking about a business where if you're a retailer, for example, or a restaurant, whatever, that if you're not making something accessible, you're turning away a big dollar. Absolutely. No, that's totally true. You are. Yeah, it's basically you're throwing money out the door because...
06:38people aren't able to get in. And I think what we have to remember here is that people always think of disability or people with disabilities as being this very small percentage of the population. So they're looking at the big picture of, well, all these customers are coming in. I might only get one person in a wheelchair or one person with a learning disability or a hearing impairment. But in reality, what they're forgetting is that we've got an aging population here.
07:06You know, worldwide we've got an aging population. Now that aging population comes along with various challenges of their own. You know, for example, mobility might be an issue, or hearing might be an issue, or sight might be an issue. So if you're making those accommodations, that population of people that might not ordinarily use your services are more likely to use them. You know, whether it's retail, whether it's entertainment, whether it's...
07:35leisure and so on. So I think the cost, and again coming to the cost of it, it depends what needs to be done. If it's a new building, then the cost is, as you were saying earlier on, absolutely minimal because you can put those, you can implement those design features that will allow greater accessibility into place as the building is being constructed, which saves a lot of money.
08:05And those things that they're putting in aren't huge. Why the doors? As an example, or recently I worked for an organization that works for affordable housing, and they were building units, and to make the units accessible, one of the things we looked at was putting support beams in the bedrooms. So in the future, if one of their residents needs a hoist or something, that could...
08:34The hoist could be attached to that support beam and it is safe and everything else. But if you try and do something like that after the building is built, you're talking about quite a few thousand dollars to make that happen. Whereas when the building was being built, it was minimal, a few hundred, and that's just for the material. The labor costs don't even come into it because they're building this unit anyway. So it all depends on what level of...
09:03you're talking about. New buildings, I would say you're actually right, minimal. Older buildings, it might be a bit more, but again, I would say the costs are huge. I think there's a lot of assumptions about what needs to be done. So having somebody like myself or one of the other professionals from the Rick Hansen Foundation look at things would give them a clear idea of the cost maybe not being as high as they're thinking it's going to be.
09:34So with that in mind when you enter a building or someone I guess someone's house or something like that when it when it turns When it comes to making a sort of a report, what are the main things you're kind of looking for? Well, I start right from outside So whether it's a building or a house, you know, you're looking at it from the exterior pathway to the front door or to the entrance of a building and then
10:03You know, you're basically walking the building, walking through the building in your mind and looking at every aspect of it. So for example, on a driveway or a pathway, you wanna make sure that it's level, it's easy to identify the path, it's safe. The lighting is good for nighttime. When you get to the front door, is it a level entry, are there steps? How easy is it to reach an intercom if you're...
10:33going into an apartment building. So it's every little detail that you can think of that you're looking at. You're not just looking at, okay, what if I'm inside, can I get from the living room to the bedroom, or can I get from one office to another? It's not that, it's you're looking at every aspect of that building, and not just the interior, but the exterior as well. And so you mentioned you've got aging clients, so you're dealing with private individuals as well?
11:01Yeah, yeah. I've just started basically that that's that's come about through the article that you saw that you contacted me through. So yes, I'm hoping that that's something that I can work more on that would allow people to stay in their homes and to maintain a level of independence that they want. Well, yeah, and like you mentioned, you know, Aging Society, I mean, latest stats from 2022 say about
11:3027% of Canadians identify with some sort of a disability. So Seems like there's a gold mine there for this kind of thing Yeah, exactly. And it's not just a gold mine. I mean, you know, yeah, absolutely There is a financial benefit for people like myself who are doing this work But at the end of the day, you know from a community and a society point of view There's so many pluses as well, you know as an example this person I'm working with at the moment
11:58She's going to be able to stay in the community where she's lived for the last 20 years or so. She's going to be still around people that she knows. She's close to friends and family. So there's a huge benefit there. And then if she decides to move, that home will be ready for somebody else to move in and to continue with aging in place with maybe some minor alterations to meet their individual needs.
12:24So I think the benefits outweigh any cost. Yeah, absolutely. And even in my own experience, I don't have a lived experience with a disability myself. My mom did get sick a few years ago and passed away shortly after that, but that's a whole other story. But once we realized that when she got sick and was ill, she was going to have some renovation work done in her house.
12:51But we just turned to the renovator and said, like, hey, we got to cancel this stuff. Because it was, in fact, terminal illness. But she could only access a wheelchair at this point. So instead of getting him to put in new coverage, we're like, OK, we need you to build a ramp from here, here, here. And she had a slightly difficult layout of her house. But he did it. He built this great ramp that would take her around the side and out to the front of the house if need be. And it's, you know, it's. Right.
13:21If we would just look at the construction of the house beforehand, not assuming that everybody's going to need a wheelchair, but I mean, a ramp to me can still be better than steps anyway. Absolutely. I mean, there's benefits to everyone. Something like a ramp, whether you've got children or you have a stroller for your kids or even just bringing your groceries in.
13:49a lot easier coming up around than trying to carry them up a step up steps. Absolutely. Now you received your certification from the Rick Hansen Foundation. Now this, their program there, it's getting a lot of worldwide attention. Can you take me through that process? Yeah. Well, I was one of the first ones to do the program. So it might've changed quite a bit since I took the course, which was back in 2018. So.
14:18really difficult for me to sort of go into too much detail because I might be giving you the wrong information, especially as I did it so long ago. So I think that's something that basically I might need to look into a bit more. I know somebody who's doing the course at the moment and they're doing it online and I think there are courses that are done in Vancouver which you can attend as well. But basically the course is there to...
14:46The course contains standards for making buildings and other facilities accessible to people with a wide range of physical, sensory, or cognitive disabilities or a combination of all of those. So that's basically the basic aspect of the program. It's designing things that accommodate people of all abilities.
15:15And to be inclusive as well, that's the other aspect of it, which is very important. So the designs are made to be inclusive. So for example, having an entrance into a building which has steps. So instead of having access, which used to be the case years and years ago, and I think it still is now, where sometimes you'd have to go through the back entrance if you're in a wheelchair or have mobility issues. Whereas the idea of universal design would be to make that.
15:44so that everyone uses the same entrance to get into that building. So having a ramp and stairs designed in a way that is aesthetically pleasing, but it's also very practical. Now, is universal design something that people or builders and designers and architects could easily wrap their head around? Or is this, are you coming up against some pushback on that? No, not really. I mean, from my understanding of it, the course that the Rick Hansen Foundation are running,
16:13They're actually trying to encourage people like I'd X and engineers and people from the construction field To actually take the course so that way, you know They have an understanding of what's required and how to make implement those things From this from the drawing stage onwards one of the architects I worked with on a project recently He's actually taken that course now he's actually done the program so you know just by
16:42sort of me chatting with him and I was going through the process of this building that we were both working on. He's done the course now. So hopefully in future designs of buildings or homes, he'll be implementing some of those standards. So to the best of your knowledge, I mean, you've got experience in both.
17:09both here and in the UK. How is Canada doing when it comes to adopting some of these concepts compared to the rest of the world? I understand that England has a lot of old buildings, so that might be a challenge. Yeah. I think Canada is doing quite well. I think there are still areas where there's need for improvement, especially when it comes to the leisure industry. Hotels and things are very –
17:38My experience is that they're very, very reluctant to sort of follow through on things. I travel quite a bit, so staying in hotels and things. I've often said to them, your room looks great, you've got a great, accessible room, but there are things there that could make it better and could make it easier for people with various different abilities. I give them my card and they give me a card.
18:07You know, say, I'm quite happy to work with you guys or if you want more information, let me know. And you very rarely hear from people after that. So I don't know if it gets passed on to a manager or whether it gets beyond the front desk. So, so, you know, I think there's a reluctance there. But again, as I was saying earlier on, they're missing out on a huge population. We're going to need those things, not necessarily just.
18:33you know, one out of every 10 customers that might use a wheelchair or a walker, they're missing out on a lot of potential clients there or customers. Well, yeah, exactly. And it's the, you know, the city of Richmond and Vancouver, they're always there, you know, and good for them. They're coming up with these affordable housing concepts and, and, and new builds and stuff. And then there was one recently here in Richmond, where it's like, okay, we've got,
19:0180, they've built 80 units of affordable housing for seniors and lower income. And they've got four of them set aside to be more accessible. And all I could think of is, well, why just four? Like what? Just make the whole thing accessible. Exactly. And it doesn't have to be that different. You can still have people using it that don't need those additional features. But you know.
19:31If somebody else comes along that does need it, it's there, ready for them. Instead of saying turning somebody away because you've only got four units that are accessible and you've got six people applying, it doesn't make sense. And especially on new builds, it just doesn't seem to make sense that you could put all those features in. I mean, a good example is, again, I keep coming back to one of my recent projects, which was working for Affordable Housing, Co-Ontario Affordable Housing Society.
20:01And what they've done in this new building is that they've got five or six units that are fully accessible, but then some of the other units have got in there. The way they've done it with the bathrooms is if it needs to be made into a more accessible bathroom, it's just a question of taking the bathtub out, which is one whole unit, the tub and the wall, and just putting the shower feature in there.
20:28So that's such an easy thing to do, and it would cost very little for them to do that. But they've done it. So as the need gets higher, as the demand gets higher, sorry, they can make those changes to that building, that existing building, with minimum effort and minimum cost. Yeah, I guess, and you know, in the cost, the whole issue of the cost, which of course some people raise, is, I mean, costs certainly can be prohibitive, I'm sure. But I mean...
20:55Oh yeah, absolutely. We're not talking about prohibitive costs, we're just talking about, okay, whoever owns the building might have to put two or three hundred dollars into it this month and then you're fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, it's looking at it in the long term rather than just the short term. Yeah, well exactly. That's really, really hard for people to sort of get their head around that I think sometimes.
21:24Yeah, exactly. So, and it's, you know, recently I was at a place in Vancouver and it just, because a friend of mine is actually in a wheelchair and he's a photographer and he came out to shoot something for me a little while ago and we realized that there was, and I mean, when we're talking about old buildings, buildings in Vancouver aren't really that old, they're not like England.
21:48But, uh, they're not, they're not necessarily as permanent either, but this place had a very accessible entrance, no problem. But the back, the back way out, let's just say there was an emergency or a fire or something at the front, it's stairs. Like there was, there was no way for them to get out. Yeah. Since, since I started working at DDA a few years ago, that's opened my eyes a lot is I kind of look at these things and go, Hey, this isn't.
22:16This doesn't seem right. This doesn't seem fair. This doesn't seem level. So, yeah, no. Well, and I think, I think that that's where the issue is. That's where the problem is. You've got somebody who says, okay, well, we put ramps in here. So that's great, you know, but they're not looking at the whole picture that that person still needs to be able to get out in an emergency or use the washroom or, you know, be able to access other parts of the building like everyone else. It's not a question of just saying, okay, we put a ramp into, we can.
22:46get people in through the door. You know, I stayed in places where I, you know, where they're called and said, do you have an accessible room? Yes, we do. And you turn up and it's not accessible at all. I mean, there's one place I stayed at where we couldn't even get in through the front door into our room. So I said, well, how do you expect this to be accessible? And she goes, well, we've got a grab bar in the bathroom.
23:16and uh... and and i think that you know uh... and i think that's where you know is think about like the uh... recalculation certification and the professional that work with it uh... a very good at doing that and like i said before i think i look at everything from
23:44entering the building or before I even enter the building. And that's the only way you're going to do it. You know, and not everyone, you know, in defense of most people, they haven't had the experience of having a disability. So they just look at it, well, I put a ramp here, so that's fine. Or, you know, and to them, that's good enough. But not realizing that.
24:13that people need access to everything else once they're in that building. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Now, in terms of your business, we'll go back and sort of more of a cost related thing. Like, obviously, you give people a report. Does that include an estimate of what it would cost? And do you get businesses just sort of looking at that and going, nah, no way? Or are businesses really coming to you because they do want to make these changes?
24:41The people that are coming to me, they want to make those changes and so that's quite easy but I don't give them a cost on it. What I do is I basically start by saying, well, these are the things that are good. You've got a building that has got X, Y, and Z positive aspects to it and these are the things that you need to improve on. Now it's up to them. At that point, they can turn around and say, well, yeah, we can't do everything in one go.
25:09One of the reasons why I call my business step-by-step because the idea is that you don't have to do everything in one go, you start somewhere and it's a step-by-step process to get to that end goal of making a building fully accessible. So, you know, I'll say to them, okay, these are the things that you need to do to make this building more accessible. And then if they wanna go further with it, I can say to them, okay, we can prioritize the things that you need to look at first.
25:39and the things that can maybe wait for a year or two years. And that way, it instantly sort of makes them realize that this is gonna cost me a year's profit to make these changes. I can do a bit now, a bit next year. We're doing some renovations, so maybe I can add some accessibility features in at that point, and so on. So yeah, so, and then obviously, if they wanna take that next step, then the cost aspect comes into it after that.
26:08It's pointless me spending all that time and effort to put in cost evaluations on everything when they really don't want to do all that. And I think it's off-putting. And I think it's off-putting as well. Now, are there builders, are there contractors who specialize in this kind of sector? Not really. Not that I know of. I mean, like I said, I don't know of anyone here in the Coalas Valley that specializes in that. But I think...
26:37Working with builders like the guys that built our house that we live in now, because we were looking at accessibility features constantly in the house to make it as easy for me as possible. They got a lot out of it. Simple things like they were researching, well, we want level entry, so how are we going to do that without causing problems with flooding if it rains heavily? How can we make this?
27:07So it is level entry and make them realize why that was important for me. Um, hopefully that that's something they've gone away with and next time they come across somebody who's a senior or somebody that has mobility issues, they're going to be looking at those things and thinking, okay, well, you know, maybe you need to have this at level entry to, or maybe you need to have these things in place to make it better, wider doors, so on. So I think, I think, I think by having personal experience, why the builders.
27:36we worked with, they're going to take that knowledge away and hopefully use it again. Yeah, that would be great. Now in terms of cost and your own personal cost, the one thing that I find that people who don't have a lived experience with disabilities, they don't understand the cost of actually living with a disability. In terms of navigating this world, do you run into these issues where it's...
28:04It's not just a cost to a business, but it's a cost to you.
28:09Yeah, I mean, I think that does happen quite regularly. I mean, a few years ago, quite a few years ago, I wanted to get into voiceover work. And, you know, I did an audition tape, sent it out. But there are quite a few places that I couldn't go into because of accessibility. So I lost out on that one. You know, maybe being offered auditions. I wouldn't offer lots of auditions, but.
28:38I was offered one or two, but then when I researched about the building, I couldn't get in, so I'd say no. So yeah, they were the cost to me as well. Yeah, absolutely. Trevor Burrus So lost revenue. And speaking of revenue, I mean, obviously you've probably heard of the new Canada Disability Benefit giving people an extra 200 bucks a month. What do you think about that?
29:07But I don't think it goes far enough. I mean, that, what's that gonna cover? A couple of cab rides? You know, it's not a lot. I mean, 200 bucks isn't much for somebody, you know. I mean, I'm in the fortunate position, I'm working and everything else. But if you're not working, and you're on low income or benefits, 200 is nothing. Yeah, and you know, back to other costs. Now, are you, do you use a wheelchair?
29:36I do. And is it motorized? Is it mechanized kind of thing? I've got two. When I'm out and about, I have a manual wheelchair and around the house and within our local community, I use the powered wheelchair. So I've got two wheelchairs. Like those alone can be ridiculously expensive. Oh man, a powered wheelchair, it's like buying a used car. The cost of a used car. Sometimes more than the cost of a used car. I mean, the one I'm...
30:05The one I'm using now, I mean, there's nothing fancy about it. And that was around 25 grand, 25,000. That's unbelievable. And there's nothing to it. I mean, it's a wheelchair. It raises up and down. The back goes, you know, the back rest alters. And that's it. There's nothing else that really, you know, there's no bells and whistles on it. Yeah.
30:32So we're getting kind of down to the end here. What else can an organization like DDA be doing to help foster accessibility? Well, I think you guys are doing quite a bit already, aren't you? I was reading just earlier on today, before you came on, about the fact that you've been working with the city of Vancouver for an accessibility strategy.
30:58Oh, you've been instrumental in that with other organizations, I'm assuming. Yeah, there's a theory. Yeah. So I think you guys are on the right tracks with things like that. And especially in the city where, um, you know, you need to get to work with, with, with main organizations, I mean, in a small community, one to one might work, but in the city it's, it's, it's a lot harder. I know. So I think you're, you're, um,
31:28accessibility strategy that you guys are working on is brilliant, really good idea. How's that going? How far have you got with that? In terms of the city strategy? That's not really part of my department. I mean, I chat with a woman who runs that part for DDA and I think she's quite pleased with what the city's doing and the moves they're making and some of the sort of legislation coming forward. So let's, I mean.
31:56Excellent. Sounds positive to me, so, and that's good. That sounds great, yes, absolutely. So how? Yeah, so I think you're on the right tracks with sort of focusing on, you know, the larger picture, especially in the big cities like Vancouver. Mm-hmm, good, good. I'm glad to hear that Canada and BC is doing well, you know, from your perspective, so. There's always improvement, but you can say that about anything, and very much so about accessibility.
32:26it's always going to be room to make changes for sure. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, and so how can people get in touch with you? Um, they can get in touch with me, uh, through my website, which is, um, step-by-step consulting.ca. Um, they can email me at ramish at step-by-step consulting.ca or my phone number, which I can give you as well. Is that okay?
32:55Perfect, yeah, if you like to, yeah, sure. Yeah, phone number is 778-992-0556. So those are the three main ways that they can get hold of me. All right, sounds good. Well, you have been listening to DDA's Encouraging Abilities podcast. Our guest today has been accessibility consultant Ramesh Ladd, who has his business step-by-step consulting. He brings his own lived experience to the profession of bringing universal design and consultancy everywhere and to everything we do in society. So thanks for joining me, Ramesh.
33:24Thank you, thanks again for the opportunity. And I'm your host, GDA Communications Manager, Evan Kelly. Thanks for listening, we'll see you next time.
 

Theatre Terrific - Expanding the Horizons for Anyone With the Acting Bug

Laen Herschler knows his live theatre. The UBC PhD student has taken the reins of Vancouver's inclusive Theatre Terrific and encourages anyone of any ability to get involved.
 
TRANSCRIPT
Theatre Terrific – Expanding the Horizons for Anyone With the Acting Bug
 
00:09
Okay, we are back for another edition of DDA's encouraging abilities podcast. I am your host DDA communications manager, Evan Kelly. Today we are talking theatre. Joining me today is Lon Hershler, the brand new artistic director of Vancouver based Theatre Terrific. Theatre Terrific production and classes are for artists of all abilities to develop performance skills and collaborate in the production of theatrical works. All of Theatre Terrific's classes, workshops, community and professional productions are
 
00:39
are made up of people of all colours, abilities, genders, and backgrounds. It started in 1985. Theatre Terrific is now Western Canada's longest running inclusive theatre program. It has won numerous awards over the years. And now with Lon at the helm, the future is even brighter. So thanks for joining me today, Lon. It's great to be here. Thanks so much. Now that the gear is working, we can do this. So tell me, tell me a little bit about yourself.
 
01:07
So yeah, I'm really happy to be jumping in here with Theatre Terrific. I've been actually involved with Theatre Terrific as an artist for about six or seven years, working with Susanna, the previous director. I'm an artist, I'm a theatre artist of many different areas of theatre. I do direction, I suppose, artistic direction now.
 
01:35
But my background's really all over the board with theatre as an artist in many different directions and ways. And yeah, quite a while with... So you'd say that theatre acting, that's your lifeblood, that's who you are.
 
01:56
So I would say that I began as an actor and that's where I entered in. I entered in through the joy of acting in theatre and I continue to act, but I've been a teacher and a facilitator of theatre, I'd say predominantly for the last 10 years. And so really working with others to create theatre, devise theatre often, helping others to...
 
02:25
create works of theatre, also doing improv theatre. I do a lot of playback theatre, which is improvise, storytelling and community. So yeah, I have a love for the acting, but I would say I've been facilitating and supporting others in their acting for the last 10 years. Now, are you still an instructor at UBC?
 
02:51
Yeah, so I'm in the midst of doing a PhD. So I started off after my master's degree in South Africa. I did a master's degree in theatre making in South Africa and lived there for about four years and then returned and taught at UBC Okanagan in the theatre department, in the creative studies.
 
03:17
and it was a very alternative theatre department, really helping theatre artists create their own work. And I worked in that for on and off for about five or six years. And then I decided to go further in my studies, in my academic studies, when I moved to Vancouver and I'm doing a PhD and also teaching on the side at UBC as well.
 
03:44
Yeah. So what's your PhD gonna be in?
 
03:49
So interestingly, the work I do at UBC is in something called research-based theatre. And so what I've been doing is supporting academics of all disciplines who want to use theatre as a medium to reach perhaps community, to reach larger audiences, to make their work sometimes make the ivory tower, so to speak, more accessible to...
 
04:19
people that wouldn't necessarily open up an academic journal and read an article, but are definitely implicated and interested in the work that's being done, but would never necessarily have access to it for various reasons. And so theatre becomes this medium, this space for people to interact with new ideas, with research that has gone into community. And in fact, overlapping with a theatre terrific's work.
 
04:49
One of the major projects I've worked on for the last three years has been around a project with People in the healthcare professions across the board so social work medicine Really nursing anything that that intersects with healthcare and People who work in those professions, but also live with a disability and their experiences So there was a very large research project
 
05:18
into the experiences of individuals with hidden disabilities or disabilities that were not hidden and their experiences, the stigmas they might have faced in those jobs. And so then we created a piece of theatre that has been since touring online and in person for three years and it's been very, very successful. And that's not part of Theatre Terrific, that's something else? No, that was not part of Theatre Terrific.
 
05:47
Other than, I suppose, because of my involvement, I create a link between those two worlds, but it wasn't under the umbrella of Theatre Terrific, yeah. Now that, what's that piece called? That piece is called Alone in the Ring. Alone in the Ring. Yeah. And that's sort of touring now, can people go see that? No, I mean.
 
06:11
When I say touring, it wouldn't be, it's not touring in the sense of professional theatre touring to theatres. It would be that we would do a lot of conferences. We'll do medical conferences. We will do all sorts of different, we will do, in fact, like this summer, the incoming students for the physiotherapy and occupational therapy departments at UBC.
 
06:38
all of their incoming classes, first and I think second years, will do the performance for. And it'll become a performance that then becomes a talking point and a place of discussion and engagement with these issues with the students. So these will all be students that, you know, hopefully in a couple of years will be coming out and working in the workforce. And now they're going to have this higher degree of interest and familiarity and consciousness and awareness.
 
07:07
around these experiences of people with disability. And for themselves, if they are students, because there are quite a few who live with disability themselves, amongst the students, this becomes a space and hopefully a safe space for them to start talking with others about their own experiences and creating openness and awareness around that, yeah. Yeah, gotcha, gotcha. So it's really just more of a big education piece, educating people on sort of intersections of...
 
07:33
abilities basically and broadening their own horizons as students as they enter the workforce. That sounds like sort of a new way of teaching in a way. I could see that expanding into a whole bunch of other sectors maybe. Yeah, I mean it's definitely something that's growing. The idea of theatre, we're at UBC not maybe the first to do this. It's happening but
 
08:03
there's been a growth in this and people are starting to open to it and see. There was a lot of pushback at first, you know, in universities, they, they, they go, is that, you know, how can you bring the arts into, is that going to, you know, they, they are also ethical concerns. They think, Oh, is this, you know, are you, is it going to really represent the, the stories accurately of these, you know, research participants? Are their stories going to be really well represented?
 
08:31
And so we have to go through a lot of work of thinking through ethically, of discussion, of going back to the research participants and saying, does this represent you? Does this represent your story? And if there are participants who wanna perform or be a part of it, that's always the ideal in this particular show. None of the participants were performing, but they were involved often in giving feedback. And yeah, so it's something that's growing.
 
08:59
and hopefully there'll be more of this that's gonna happen in different sectors for sure. Yeah, that sounds really interesting and a good way to learn. Why did you get involved with Theatre Terrific?
 
09:15
Wow, because first of all, I met Susanna and Susanna who as maybe some of your listeners may know or those who don't know was the founding artistic director of Theatre Terrific for 20 years, more than 20 years. And she is a wonderful human being and brings so much joy and passion to the work she does. And when I first met her, her energy was so warm and inviting.
 
09:45
And when she told me about what she was doing, I said, you know, and I was already very involved in what you would call applied theatre, which is working a lot in community with theatre, seeing, like I said, that one example of the university, but I'd been working in lots of different ways where we see the power of theatre in so many that it doesn't just have to be on Broadway, that theatre, but theatre has this power to...
 
10:13
capture the minds and imaginations and spread joy and ideas in so many different directions and involve people in different things. And so when I met Susanna and I heard about the company, she was just, and I said, how can I be involved? And at first I just came in as an artist and I just volunteered my time and I just participated and I learned from Susanna how the company works. And I just.
 
10:40
became involved as an artist and I learned so much from everybody that was involved. Theatre Terrific is an incredible space. It's, you know, it's a really, as an artist I learned a lot and as a human being I learned a lot. And so I think there's not always, as an artist sometimes it feels like you're either sacrificing one or the other.
 
11:06
You either are going into the really mainstream theatre and sometimes you feel like you have to sacrifice a part of your humanness to try and make it and struggle in the industry. And on the other hand, sometimes you can feel like on the other hand, you have to sacrifice your art in order to be a part of community building. And then suddenly I found this wonderful nexus, this space that was for me nourishing both of those things.
 
11:36
And that's what drew me to Theatre Terrific and keeps me here. More than just here, there's a new artistic director. Now, how many people are involved in this theatre group? And how many people are differently abled, in a sense? And obviously you don't have any interest in turning anybody away, so you're gonna typically develop people, you're gonna have people with physical disabilities or people with cognitive disabilities. Is it just...
 
12:05
Describe the group to me.
 
12:09
Yeah, I mean, so it's a community. It's a community in the sense that we're not like a theatre company that has a fixed group of individuals that always perform in our plays or always, it's a community that people, some people may come on just for the classes. We offer all sorts of amazing and diverse classes from drum making to theatre creation to dance to, you name it, choral singing.
 
12:38
we offer these different classes and somebody might come in for a class. Other people might wanna stay and be a part of, they might audition for one of our productions and be a part of that. And so there are people that would come for one class and people that come for all of our classes and are in the shows. And so the community is quite expansive and then you have to stay over the years. So some people might come for two years in a row and then...
 
13:08
They take a hiatus and come back three years later, but they're always part of the community. And often they're coming to see the shows and that's all a community of people that... And so I would say that expansive community, that family of theatre terrific is hundreds of people. And then on any given year in the classes, you might have, let's say, 50, 60 people that will be involved in our classes, 70 people that will be involved in our classes over...
 
13:38
a particular season, a particular year. And those people may have been many years in the company, others are coming for the first time. And in terms of the percentage or the diversity, it really, we are, I say, radically inclusive in the sense that we're not asking people to disclose, and therefore we're gonna accept you because you disclose a certain type of disability.
 
14:07
but we make it well known in the community that we do not turn anybody away. And in fact, we encourage everybody to come in and by creating that inclusive space, not by necessarily saying you have to, these are the requirements, but by saying we are gonna make this space as inclusive and possible for everybody that wants to come. I think we get a name for ourselves out there and people very, very diverse. I think people that would never have a chance.
 
14:37
to be in another theatre company or coming into our theatre company and into our space because of that accessibility, because of that openness and that inclusion. And so I would say in my, it's hard to give you a percentage and some people have hidden disabilities and other people don't. But I would say, for instance, in our theatre creation class right now that I'm running with my dear friend, Angelo, we would...
 
15:07
have around 15 to 17 participants. And I would say, you know, 90 to 95% of that would identify as having a disability. Now, you know, very, very, very diverse in terms of that, so yeah. So like in terms of your performances, what's the goal of theatre director? I mean, maybe you've got different goals now that you're taking the artistic director seat.
 
15:36
How many productions would you like to do a year? Where can people see them, that kind of thing?
 
15:43
So we often at the end of each class, so for the theatre terrific, I'll give that example, because we're doing it at the end of each class, we'll do a very small showing of something we've done in that class. That'll be usually an intimate showing for the community of people, but people that might be interested in the class in future years would be able to come maybe to see one of those showings and they could reach out to theatre terrific and find out when those are happening. Those are more informal and more.
 
16:12
community. And then we have larger productions like our Harvest Festival production, which is usually in the last few years has been always timed with the Fringe Festival. So we will create a show this summer and that'll be quite a large production in the sense that that'll be a large cast production. So we usually include about a minimum of 10 performers in that production. And that'll be
 
16:42
in early September, so I think the Fringe Festival this year is September 5th to 15th, and we will perform at the venue which is an outdoor venue on Granville Island, which will be advertised with the whole Fringe Festival and will also be all the dates and times which I'm not fully sure of yet, I don't know if those things have been decided yet.
 
17:08
will be up very soon and they'll be on our website and they'll be also advertised through the Fringe Festival. And so that'll be our big production. And then we have all sorts of other productions that happen during the year. For instance, we're working on another production called Tree Drum, which is with Bill and Bill has been working with Theatre Terrific far longer than me. I don't even know when he began. He's been working.
 
17:38
probably over a decade with Theatre Terrific. And this is Bill's baby project. It's very dear to him and dear to us. It's a story of his, really his story of growing up as an indigenous man, but as a young indigenous person being taken away from his home. And...
 
18:07
and also then his journey to now drum making and the work that he does with drums where he leads the drum making classes in our theatre terrific. But the show which is being created is around his story and will also include for the audience a small circle in the audience to create a drum during the performance.
 
18:34
So it's going to be quite an incredible piece. Yeah, during the performance. Well, as a director myself, that sounds very intriguing. No, it's okay. Yes, I think it's going to be quite an interesting piece. And so we're going to work on that again this year, this summer. Yeah, it's... And then there's another youth piece that we're going to be working on, a youth project where we're going to be inviting...
 
19:01
younger community members to take part in that and we'll create a show based upon that, the details to emerge. But really the best way to get to know about what we're doing is to to check out our website and to link in with us on social media where you'll kind of get all the updates about when shows are happening and when you can see something and when you can partake it in something. So you know it's
 
19:29
and be a part of the community, how you can be a part of the community. Yeah. So do people, I assume because you're so inclusive that you don't need to have a whole lot of theatre experience to take part in some of this stuff. Yeah, great question. So that's a huge part of the inclusion kind of dimension is to also not limit people to somebody that's necessarily gone through a theatre school or had a lot of
 
19:59
background in theatre, we do include everybody, but I would say, or not and, I would say that we make our classes such that anybody can participate, but that everybody's gonna be pushed to a higher level. So that we don't, just because somebody doesn't necessarily have a background, that doesn't mean that they get a...
 
20:24
a card to kind of sit back and say, oh, well, I don't have experience, so I can't push myself. No, we demand of everybody a kind of level of artistic engagement. And that becomes also something that I think people really appreciate that people may think, oh, it's really inclusive. So therefore, we're gonna drop down the level to include everybody. But that's not what theatre terrific is. Theatre terrific is about exactly.
 
20:54
Exactly, you got it. Now in terms of so for people who do have disabilities, maybe visible disabilities, what kind of support do they get from from those running the class or like are people that run the class trained to deal with certain disabilities in any in any way?
 
21:14
So, I mean, training does happen along the way. And I would say all of our work is constant training. It's, we're constantly learning and having discussions about how we can better serve the community and how, you know, with everybody that's involved. And so we're constantly, I think, improving our practices. And, you know, I can speak to that more, but the, in general, in our classes, for instance,
 
21:44
we encourage if people regularly do have a caregiver, that that caregiver is included in the class. And so there are certain individuals that will have a caregiver with them in the class if they need that kind of support. And then that caregiver often is encouraged to be a part of that class also artistically. And so that becomes an interesting part of it as well, where nobody gets, nobody's exempt.
 
22:12
and everybody gets to participate and everybody's part of the process. And so in that sense, we'll have support workers, we'll have caregivers that at certain times will be a part of it. And those that are not with a caregiver, you know, each person at the beginning of each theatre creation class right now that we're doing will be in a circle and there's always a space for people to say they're evolving.
 
22:42
access needs that day because not everybody's needs are the same this week as they are next week and for different reasons. You know sometimes there are yes physical needs and access needs that we've got to be aware of from the beginning and and we know about them and we're supporting and then there are other emotional needs uh different changing circumstances in a person's life that need to be stated at the beginning of a class.
 
23:10
And so we created really a space where everybody states their needs. I'm gonna need this today. I need everybody to know. Yeah. And we find that, since we've been doing that, people are opening up and allowing everybody to know what they need and that creates a space where everybody's needs are met. Now, obviously there are situations where things happen and we realize that...
 
23:39
you know, we need to improve our race. And that's part of theatre terrific as well is that, you know, if somebody says, well, you know, like something happened to me last class, which really didn't make me feel included, or I felt that my needs were not being met, then we take it really seriously. And we sit down with that person, if they're, you know, able for conversation, we talk it through, or we bring in, and we have done this, we bring in advisors from, you know.
 
24:08
different parts of the community because we're so inclusive. There's so many different needs and we can't be experts in everything. And so, you know, we'll bring in somebody from, we'll bring in an advisor from, you know, let's say, you know, one example is coming to my head was we had somebody from the blind community and they felt that, you know, something was lacking in the way that we were doing it. And they wanted to see us improve our accessibility for people in their community. And so we brought in somebody.
 
24:38
to give a whole training for our staff around that community specifically and how we could make it more accessible to them. And so that's how we work. You know, we the best we can. And then you met you then you've just reached another level. It's instead of universal design, you've got universal theatre. Is there an age limit for this these programs or are you mainly targeted towards adults? For our classes, we it's it's adult.
 
25:06
However, like I said, we have different programs and that's something that we would like to to evolve is to have something maybe more of a youth program as well. But within the adult range, definitely no upward limit. In terms of youth, like I said, we've got a specific youth program that we're hoping to launch this year. So stay tuned for that.
 
25:35
But yeah, our main classes are usually for adults. That being said, that could be from, I don't know, it's a good question. I'm not 100% sure where we would draw the line. I don't know that I know the official line, but we have people in the class that are 17, 18, so I guess they would qualify as youth. Yeah, I guess so. There's a whole other market there for even kids younger than that that I think could
 
26:04
tapped into, which would be amazing. So expand a bit more on Harvest. This is your big annual production. What's any idea what this year is going to be about? Have you started working on that? So a little bit, definitely drawing the team together, thinking through some ideas. We one of the ideas that I had or one of the ideas that I want to kind of like
 
26:34
encourage us to continue developing inside of Theatre Terrific is that, so I'll back up for a second, the harvest, and this might inform the way I explain it, the harvest is this idea of a show that kind of, like the name suggests, brings together, is like the harvest of all the work we've done that year. So if all of our classes and all of our...
 
26:59
different projects are building skills and building community and building ourselves as theatre artists. The show becomes a way for us to kind of, in a little way, tie things together and, or bring out and harvest a lot of all of that. That doesn't mean that everybody that was involved all in the way is in the Harvest show, but it means that things that came up that...
 
27:27
beautiful moments and ideas and skills that were developed over the year come together in a beautiful way in the show, in the Harvest production, which is created during the summer and is a devised production, which means that it is created from the cast, from the bottom. So yeah, the cast and the directors and the, are all co-writing and creating the piece together. And so it becomes...
 
27:56
a very collective creation piece. Obviously, the director has to make some choices and we make some choices about the text that ends up being the final text. But what is being suggested by the co-creators, by the participants, by the actors, becomes integral to the piece. And this year, the theme that we've started to explore and which...
 
28:25
in the theatre creation class is the idea of inside and outside. So kind of juxtaposing that as a theme, what the difference between things that occur, you know, in all different levels, inside and outside. I mean, I think it's a theme that on a literal level has a lot of resonance post-COVID-19 where a lot of us, you know.
 
28:54
So, because on a literal level, that idea of these indoor spaces and theatres typically done indoors, but then our show's going to be outdoors and what does that change? That's on a very literal level, but then we can all think of the different layers and understandings of where we decide this idea of things that are inside of us or things that are outside of us or worlds that are outer worlds and inner worlds. And so we're exploring those themes. Where it's going to go?
 
29:24
Who knows? Not necessarily, just in my head. Exactly. Skies a little bit. Yeah. That could be interpreted in a lot of different ways. And you aim to be doing that on Granville Island you mentioned. But is this something you'd be charging for? Is this free admission kind of thing? So the Fringe Festival does, there is charging ticket prices. However, we usually find a way to include anybody that...
 
29:53
wants to be included if it becomes an issue for you to pay the Fringe Festival prices. We usually have programs to allow people to come in. So don't let cost be something that gets in the way from being a part of it. And how long of a production is your Harvest Productions? Are these? Like how long will the piece be? Yeah.
 
30:20
Yeah, so it's usually I would say it's around an hour long. Well, these are that's pretty involved for theatre. Like, how do you when it comes to to theatre in Vancouver, how do you think how's it going? Is it is it is it hard to get people out these days? I mean, you look around at the Netflix and everything and everything VR or AR that people are doing these days. How is live theatre surviving in Vancouver these days? So I, you know, that's it again.
 
30:50
such an important question, I think, something that everybody in theatre is thinking about. And, you know, on the one hand, I would say, yeah, of course, people are, you know, have entertainment at their fingertips in their house in ways that they've never had before. And that's obvious. And the choice is overwhelming. And, you know, there's all those things. But what, obviously Netflix and...
 
31:19
all of these different providers don't provide is community. And the kind of the live interaction that live theatre produces. So in a way, as I think the pendulum swings has swung towards, you know, kind of all this access to online entertainment and streaming, we're gonna see, we are seeing a pendulum shifting towards people.
 
31:47
wanting and needing different forms of interaction with human beings and with others. And I think theatre as opposed as, or in juxtaposition to film and television offers that. And so are we getting, are we aiming to have thousands of people at our productions? No, but we are definitely getting lots of people that,
 
32:14
You may notice that we're filling up on our classes and we are getting, yeah, and we're getting lots of people to come out to our productions. Can we grow? Of course, we'd love to grow and have more and more people come. But I think there is that. And I think as, you know, and it's another thing that as AI develops as well, we're gonna see the ironically an increased value in the creative arts.
 
32:44
Because. So now there's sorry to interrupt, but now now there's I think we've just come up come up on a big piece of your your harvest about inside and outside. We're talking about games. We are like getting back into live theatre. There's now there's this juxtaposition. You're welcome. Well, yeah, I mean, that's it. That's the that's that's it. And and I think yes.
 
33:12
Thank you. I mean, I think, do you want to, do you want to be a part of the cast? I should be, I should be at this point. Yeah. I mean, that's, you know, you're making me think that that's such an interesting, you know, dimension of this is that, is that moving from the inside to the outside? Also is that movement from, you know, being stuck in our bedroom to, to coming out and being outside with others, you know? So yeah.
 
33:37
So you say your classes are popular because I know I noticed on your website the spring theatre creation class is fully booked. I don't know if that's still going or now we're getting a little bit past spring. Do you normally fill up all the spaces in your in your in your classes?
 
33:53
Um, yes, I mean, we often get a good turnout. All classes are different, so some of the classes fill out, fill up quicker than others, especially if we're gonna mount like a new class, then that might not fill up as quickly because people aren't familiar with it. Theatre creation has been around for a while, and so I would say that that one fills out the quickest. But yeah, we get really good turnouts. And, um...
 
34:22
You know, and people come back. People come back year after year. We have some people that have been in the theatre creation class as far back as I've been there. So that means at least probably seven years in a row. So, you know, that's always a good sign. Yeah, for sure. Now, do those classes cost money? Again, I think you sort of touch on this idea that Theatre Terrific is not, you know, we're not gonna refuse people over money or something like that. So...
 
34:50
The classes do cost money, and outside of that, where else do you get your funding?
 
34:56
Yeah, so they do. There is, again, exactly like you said, there's a cost, but we never turn people away. And we always have ways of allowing for people to be a part of the class if financially there's obstacles. And so we make it as accessible as possible in that way. Where does our funding come from? You know, we're still...
 
35:24
largely at this point dependent on government funding. So we do get a lot of Arts Council and different Council funding. So the Canadian Arts Council is a big part of our, of how we get our funding. That's a big source of our revenue. But we also, you know, the community.
 
35:50
So there are people that see our work that are part of the community that also then come to fundraisers and we do some fundraising through that. So we gain some money through fundraisers throughout the year. And we are in the midst of trying, we were in the midst of hiring somebody to do to try and branch out and to do corporate funding and just to see if there are corporations out there that that want to have theatre terrific.
 
36:19
as somebody that they support and see as teaming up with to get their message out and our message out in kind donations. So, you know, media companies that maybe want to donate in kind and then, you know, be a partner in the work that we do. And so we're looking to branch out in that way, for sure. How many staff, like how many full time staff does the theatre have? Oh,
 
36:46
We don't actually have any full-time staff, even me, I'm not full-time right now. There are, I would say, in staff, inwards of around three or four fluctuating staff members. And so, yeah, so nobody there is full-time. We all have other work that we do and then come on and work for for Theatre Terrific in certain capacities.
 
37:14
as we grow and as we develop in our corporate funding and in our government funding, we hope to grow and be able to have a much bigger staff and be able to include more and more people in our projects. So there's lots of volunteers as well? Yeah. I mean, I would say we try to pay people as much as possible. But obviously there's always space for volunteers. So whenever we're doing a production, if people want to volunteer and help with front of house or in different ways.
 
37:44
Um, you know, we're always, you know, embracing of that. And people sometimes just want to be around the excitement of a theatre piece. So people want to be there. And so we always encourage that, but as much as possible, we try to pay people and honor people's time and efforts in, in, in, in, in some ways. Um, so that's one of the things that we do is to try and, and, uh, include people. But.
 
38:12
For sure, people do want to volunteer. And our board, which is a huge part of this, is volunteer. So in every organization, you have a board, and we have some very active board members. So yeah, that becomes important. Yeah, well, that sounds really good. Anything else to add today? Like, have we not touched on anything else that you think that we need to chat about when it comes to theatre terrific?
 
38:40
You know, just how, you know, I want to say how I really, and this comes from really the bottom of my heart, that, you know, if anybody out there that is listening to this and is kind of on the fence around, you know, I have some artistic interest, but, you know, I don't know. I'm not sure if I have what it takes. I, you know, I.
 
39:10
I don't know if it's really gonna be accessible for me. Is that, you know, I really encourage them to take the jump off the fence, so to speak, and come in and, you know, experience some of the work we do because it is so wonderful to be a part of this community. And the, you know, the amount of...
 
39:39
smiles and joy that I see around me and that I experienced in myself through the work is so inspiring. And I think it's just, it's, you know, I just really encourage everybody to, you know, to not hold back if they have that. Cause I know we all have that little voice and every artist has that little voice on their shoulder that's been there.
 
40:08
since they were young, it's always like, oh, you're not really an artist. You're not really, you know. Is this really a good idea? I know the feeling. Exactly, and we all say it. So you've got to turn to that little person on your shoulder and you just got to say, be quiet. Get off my shoulder right now. I don't need you right now. And then jump in. That's what I would say. Yep. Yeah. Absolutely. All right, so how do people get in touch with you long? How do they get involved with the theatre?
 
40:38
So, theatroterific.ca is our website. There's many ways to, there's ways to get in touch and to contact, to link up with social media through the website. And there are contact details there for the company to reach out to us by email. And that would be the best way. And I'm artistic director at theatroterific.ca. That's my email. So if anybody wants to reach out to me.
 
41:07
Personally, that's artisticdirector at theatreterrific.ca. So yeah, please reach out and let me know that you're out there and in any capacity that you wanna be involved, we have space for you. Yeah. Well, that sounds awesome. You have been listening to DDA's Encouraging Abilities podcast. My guest today has been Lon Hershler, the new artistic director of Theatre Terrific. It's a company based in Vancouver and they welcome actors of all abilities.
 
41:36
to come and explore the wonderful world of theatre. Lon, thanks again so much for joining me today. Thanks so much for having me. It's been a huge pleasure. And I'm Evan Kelly. See you next time.
 

Filling the Gap - Leash of Hope Assistance Dogs

It's a long process, and it's not cheap. We chat with the founders of Leash of Hope Assistance Dogs who are doing everything possible to meet the demand for service dogs to help the world become more accessible for people with disabilities.
TRANSCRIPT
Filling the Gap - Leash of Hope Assistance Dogs
 
00:04
We are back with DDA's Encouraging Abilities podcast, where we talk about all things related to disabilities. I'm your host, DDA Communications Manager, Evan Kelly. Today we are joined by Danielle Main and Tessa Schmidt, who are founded Leash of Hope Assistance Dogs. I've wanted to talk to them for a little while now. That of course sums up what that is. We're talking about doggos. We're big fans of dogs here at DDA and anything that makes things more accessible for people with physical or developmental disabilities.
 
00:34
Thank you for joining me today. My pleasure. Thank you. All righty. So Danielle, tell me a little bit about yourself. So as mentioned, I'm one of the co-founders of Leash of Hope. One of the things that we're very proud about, and I'm very proud about is the fact that our organization is run by two women that both have disabilities. I am low vision blind with optic nerve dysplasia.
 
01:03
And amongst running Leash of Hope, I'm also a full-time registered massage therapist and train as a competitive rower. So, oh, wow. That's a that's a lot of physicality going on. Yeah. And Tessa, what about yourself? I. I have a special career, and my main role in Leash of Hope is to train the dogs and the clients.
 
01:33
And alongside of that, I work with children as a BI. Oh, okay. That's interesting. So did you both found Leash of Hope Assistance Dogs? Or is this mainly your thing, Danielle? We both found it together. So when Tess and I came together, we both had...
 
02:01
very complimentary skill sets. And we noticed that there was a need within the industry and the community of people with disabilities that we felt like with our unique skill sets that we could kind of bridge a gap and fill. So the two of us together, me having more business background and my background with dogs was, more dogs with like behavioral issues. And then Tessa having a more formal background education and...
 
02:30
service dogs and dog training. We felt like our skills were very complimentary to be able to start something from the ground up. So what is your background with dogs?
 
02:43
So my, oh sorry, go ahead. No, Danny, I think that was in the... Oh, I'm so sure. So my background with dogs, first and foremost my education was doing equine sports massage, which led into extracurricular education in canine massage, and from there I spent some time working in vet clinics and then as well as
 
03:12
working in a grooming salon as a grooming assistant, as well as being a professional border for dogs, especially dogs with behavioral or medical needs. So that was my background with dogs before starting Le Chappot. And what about you, Tessa? I apprenticed under several service dog trainers.
 
03:39
that works with multiple different organizations and have learned a lot through hands-on and working with the Balanceable Canine Program as well. Wow, that's interesting. Now, Danielle, equine massage, canine massage, is that... I mean, equine massage, I've got friends who get involved in horses, so I understand sort of the need for that, but I've never heard of canine massage before. Is that a thing that people... Like,
 
04:09
look for that kind of a service? The main reason why I would get requests for that type of service would be anything from like dogs that were in some kind of sport, same as kind of with people, same as with horses. And, you know, the dogs might have very physical sport needs of whether it's dogs that are doing like agility or barn hunt or any kind of like,
 
04:38
canny cross and so just like people end up developing aches and pains and imbalances and then I'd also work on a lot of like steamer dogs with aches and pains and imbalances so Interesting So you you started Leash of Hope because you saw a need tell me tell me about that in you know I'm not someone who identifies with a disability so I Wouldn't recognize the need for a service animal or a service dog what?
 
05:07
What are the barriers that people are facing in order to access this type of service?
 
05:16
Um, so I would say that the biggest barrier would be availability, especially for properly trained dogs and the most evident way that that can be seen is the amount of people that are trying to self evaluate the necessity for dog and then train on their own because they don't feel like the resources are available for them to get.
 
05:44
professionally trained service dog. And if you look at, especially when we founded the organization, what was available at that time, it was very minimal, especially within BC. And so because of that, Tessa and I, both being people that were very active, that had unique needs, recognized that there was kind of a lot of gaps within services that are being provided, mostly because
 
06:12
of how long wait lists are for some of the bigger programs or how much people were having to go out of province to acquire a properly trained dog. And then the alternative to being people trying to, like as a lay person, raise and train their own dog and self-evaluate if it's appropriate didn't seem like the best option either. So we decided to go into this venture trying to fill that gap.
 
06:41
For someone like me, I'm quite ignorant about this process. Now we're talking about service dogs. Is that the same thing as a seeing eye dog?
 
06:53
Um, it falls under the umbrella of an assistance dog. Service dogs are considered generally like different as a seeing eye dogs specifically, um, or, or guide dogs specifically see seeing eye dogs or there's actually a school. Uh, so a guide dog specifically is a dog that's meant to guide and navigate, uh, someone with sight loss through a rigid handle often, or some form of handle.
 
07:19
But they all kind of fall under the umbrella of an assistant or a working dog. So what about the animals that you two train? What are they designed to do essentially?
 
07:34
We have three categories of dogs. So we have three divisions within Leisure of Hope. One is the guide dog division for people like myself who are low vision or blind. We have mobility dogs under a mobility division. And those are dogs that are trained to provide assistance to someone who has mobility challenges. Maybe they're wheelchair users. Maybe they're able to walk.
 
08:04
with an aid or they need walking support, people to walk, to ambulate properly and comfortably. And those dogs are tasked trying to often to do things like press buttons and pick things up, take off coats and socks. Yeah. And then the last division is our medical alert division. And those are dogs that are trained for people who are deaf or hard of hearing, may have other forms of invisible disabilities like PTSD, autism.
 
08:33
And the dogs are trained to do things like alert to when it's time to take medication or turn lights on, you know, sometimes even pull blankets off of kids and going, come on, we've got to get you a bed or find an exit if someone's in a state of distress because of the environment they're in. So all three divisions have very different specific tasks that they do for their handlers. Now, now Tessa, I would imagine.
 
09:02
given that there are three categories of training, there's gotta be three different approaches to training. Now, would you, like, say you select a dog. I'm gonna get to that selection process in a minute or two, but if you select a dog, is it, it's then trained specifically for one category, or can you train a dog for all categories? We do, that is a specialty of our program. We do cross train our dogs.
 
09:31
but they're all trained to a baseline of tasks. And then once they are matched with the client, the individual, then we finalize the training and put in more specific training if required to the individual. Now, how do you go through the selection process for an animal or a dog rather? Like how do you decide, this one's gonna be really good, let's train him, this one not so good, we'll...
 
09:59
find them a family or something like that. Where's that selection process?
 
10:05
So we do a lot of testing throughout the dog's entire time in the program during their in training period. We have our assessment upon intake and then monthly assessments after that where we where we go a little bit they're inclined to work still that they are are wanting
 
10:34
can be in this field.
 
10:39
And do you get into the training process and then discover that maybe this, you know, one particular dog isn't a good fit and then you sort of got to start over again? Yes, sometimes that does happen. Okay, so that and where like, where do you where do you get the dogs? Are there specific breeders that that sort of target your industry?
 
11:06
We do work with a few selective leaders. The majority of our dogs are actually rescuer dogs. Oh really? Yes. So you're sort of solving a couple of problems, not just assistance dogs, you're giving these dogs purpose and a home essentially? Correct, correct, yes. And we rescue dogs from all over North America. Oh wow.
 
11:35
What about Mexico? There's lots of good dogs down there getting rescued.
 
11:42
Um, Danielle, I think we definitely do have dogs from, from, uh, Mexico test is prompting me because of the original leash of hope dog was my guide dog, Pedro, uh, who came to me with that name as a street stray puppy from Mexico. And, um, one of the things that's neat about that is, is, you know, our motto is we provide hope at both ends of the leash for that exact reason. Cause we, we, you know, fulfill that purpose, but that's part of why we do such extensive testing and we work with our network.
 
12:12
to pull dogs in. And if nothing else, if we pull it, we rescue a dog or young puppy, and it can't work for a program. If nothing else, it's probably has a pretty decent temperament to be to have caught the attention of, you know, someone in our team, and it'll still make a great family dog, you know, a good member of society. And so it does, you know, double duty in, in doing a good thing, whether it helps our program or not.
 
12:42
Now, on that note, are there specific breeds that make better assistance dogs or better guide dogs? Because I noticed I've bumped into you both at our leisure fair, and it's not what I would have said as typical assistance dogs. They were like, you know, like some other kind of breed. So, yeah, I could just speak to that a bit. That's where the rescuing comes in, because we are a small enough organization that through all of that testing that we do.
 
13:10
We often end up with dogs that maybe wouldn't typically be working. And that's the nice thing, because we really test and look at the dog's individual temperament. We do end up staying away from certain breeds as far as ensuring that we meet municipal bylaw concerns, because there's lots of places, unfortunately, that there are breed restrictions.
 
13:38
Um, and in that too, you know, we, we do acknowledge that there's sometimes, um, inherently some problems if you're wanting to train a dog that, uh, might have a reputation for, for aggression. And some of that can be true. And then some of it also may not is really comes out to individual dog, but we recognize that that becomes a factor regardless. And so because of that, we do.
 
14:06
end up avoiding certain breeds and then otherwise the dogs that we look for have to be really solid in their temperament. They also have to be a certain size so that they're safe walking around in public especially in crowds and they have to be work-driven as Tess have pointed out and they have to not be protective in case you know something ever happened to a handler they need to approach someone or someone approaches them. So there's all of these things that we look for.
 
14:35
that aren't necessarily breed specific. And that also helps us because there's lots of people with different lifestyle needs and different breeds can fit those better for individual people. So my love for Chihuahuas means I'm never going to get a Chihuahua assistance dog. Probably not. But aside from that, too, part of what makes an assistance dog is that there has to actually be a need for someone to have one in public.
 
15:04
So besides for the Chihuahua thing, if an individual, as much as every people like dogs and they want to have a dog with them, there actually has to be a medical necessity that the dog is providing a purpose to help them to be in public. Yeah, of course. So I would think something like a lab or like a black lab or a yellow lab, those would make really good assistance dogs. Is there any particular breed that is one that kind of shines better than the others?
 
15:33
Uh, I think you could start a really big debate there. And I think that I would be trending on, on, uh, into delicate territory by saying that, um, I mean, personally, so my last dog, Pedro, the one who was a Mexican street stray, he was part red healer and Greyhound. He was a high energy dog and a really active person. My current dog is a standard poodle.
 
15:55
And so my dogs, for my specific needs, are these high energy dogs to keep up with the long days that I do of, you know, my job and training and different things. So I would have a very different bias and answer to that question I think then, you know, Tessa there who has a real love for labs, Tessa has a giant golden lab. Yeah, so I think the joke that I kind of make is for a guide dog.
 
16:24
Hmm. Labs and golden retrievers, I kind of make the joke of that they're really great for for being used as general program dogs, especially for handling to lay people, because they're so friendly and happy go lucky and easy going and even if they make mistakes, people are like, oh, that lab's funny. But they're kind of like giving someone who's learning to drive the guide dog will say or just drive, you know, like a Toyota or Honda Civic, whereas my guide dogs are like
 
16:52
driving a Ferrari for a guide dog. So you can't hand them to anyone. There are a lot and they test and challenge you but that's exactly what I need in a dog. And maybe one of you could speak to this, the question about, you know, what if there is, it's one thing to train the dog and get them up to speed, not mentioning Ferraris, but.
 
17:19
Is there sometimes an issue where a dog is not compatible with a client? Yes, yes, there is. And at that point, even though we've run all these checks and balances. Every school has hit this concern at some point or another where the dog is just not the right fit for the individual. And we would.
 
17:48
take the dog back and place another dog with the individual and place that dog with another individual. That's more suitable for what that dog's personality traits are, energy traits are. It's quite challenging for the dog because the dog is trying to bond with the individual and then moving on to another one and the individual as well, because they put a lot of thought into coming and applying for a dog and the process is long.
 
18:18
And it's hard, but eventually we find the right fit. And usually we find the right fit right out of the gate. Well, that's good. That's good, because I mean, your website says it could take up to 10 years for someone to wait for a dog. That seems like a ridiculously long time to get a service animal like that. That seems unfair. Why is it like that? Is there just not enough supply to meet demand?
 
18:48
Yes, that's you. That is the case with a lot of the schools and COVID did do a number, so to speak, on the amount of dogs that schools are able to produce because of the lack of socialization that happened in that period. And more people are needing the assistance of a service dog. Or an assistance animal, I should say.
 
19:16
So is that something we need to be focusing more on? Do we do we need I mean, do you for a service dog, where would someone get their funding? Is that are you guys supported by government programs or anything? Or is this covered by anything? We do a lot of like fundraising and we work hand in hand with our clients to fundraise for their dogs. We never expect anyone to pay out of pocket. There is some government funding out there, but I think.
 
19:46
The biggest thing is, I think actually comes down to a government level where we need to encourage the, our province as an individual to support the development of more professionals and programs to meet the supply that's out there. And that would help solve the problem as well as discourage people from putting a vest on their dog and going into public.
 
20:15
And then would also reduce the wait times on things if the government worked with an acknowledged more professional programs or individuals who are providing dogs at a standard that's being met for individuals. And I think that would help solve a lot of the problems. And lots of programs, including ours, do heavily rely on things like donations and fundraisers.
 
20:46
to be able to supply people with these dogs because they are expensive. So if I was to come to you and say, I would like a dog, I'm not worried about the money, how much from start to finish, assuming you've identified one of the categories and what I need and you needed to train a dog from start to finish, what does that cost? To be honest, it actually doesn't matter whether someone has the money or they don't. We're always gonna tell people it's a fundraising process because we are...
 
21:15
a registered charity, it's not like you're coming and buying a dog from us. But in total, the value of one of our dogs is about fifteen thousand dollars. What sort of issue like how long have you guys been in business?
 
21:30
This August will be 10 years, eh Tessa? Yep. Decadent. Nice. So what sort of issues did you face getting Leash of Hope off the ground? I think the biggest thing is that lots of other programs start as kind of satellites of bigger ones of other programs other places. It's not very common that you
 
21:57
that programs start from ground based up and for us it was really important that we built a program that met um assistant dog international standards and at that time the information on what that meant was readily available so we were able to take their standards and build our policies and training program based off of that. It was also important for us to to be an organization that actually
 
22:27
for someone like, especially with Tessa's background, to build a business, a for-profit business as a service dog trainer and go, give me $10,000 and I'll train a dog for you and then send people off. But for us, there was a big efficacy piece on trying to make sure that we were supporting the disabled community, a lot of which is like low income and also to hold the clients we work with responsible.
 
22:57
to a standard of training. Whereas the downside of being, I guess like for profit, especially in someone like Tessa's case, who could just go and train a service dog, is that once she's done the training and being paid, she doesn't actually have any ability to check up and make sure people are handling the dog appropriately in public anymore. And so for us, it was really important that the people we decide to hand these highly trained animals to be in public with.
 
23:26
were being held to the standards that ADI set that we were incorporating into our program. So they had the open the... So that... Yeah, sorry, go ahead. I was going to say, so that was definitely like the hardest part because we were starting with what we wanted to do in mind and we were starting from scratch. It was, you know, that was probably the hardest part about starting out. I would say, I don't know, Tessa might have a different answer.
 
23:54
But that is it is interesting that, you know, it's not just about the dog. It's about it's about making sure the people that get the dogs sort of know what they're doing. So is there a training aspect to that as well? Maybe you could answer that, Tessa. Yes, there is. So what's unique about our program compared to other programs is we spend a year working with the client after they receive their dog. And
 
24:23
We expect the client to commit to a certain number of hours over the course of a year where we gradually see them less and less and less so that we can ensure that the training is Followed and that they can maintain our level of training requirements.
 
24:46
This was designed because we felt that going to a school for two to four weeks and having all that information dumped into your brain was not retainable.
 
25:04
for an individual, or sorry, was not attainable for an individual to remember it all and then go home, back to their home environment and work with their dog independent of the program at that point. Now, Danielle mentioned an international standard. Where do these international standards come from? Who sets those?
 
25:32
Assistance Dog International is the recognized accrediting body of Silver Dog Schools. And so you kind of get accredited by them? How do they just come here and see what you're doing? Or how does that work? So international accreditation is quite a strenuous and extensive process for any program. We were well on our way down that stream to get that done pre-COVID and then
 
26:01
you know, the pandemic definitely put a damper on it. We previously did apply for ADI and we met a lot of the checks and balances except for the fact that in the States, I guess a nonprofit there is what our charitable status is here. So we'd applied only with nonprofit status and hadn't quite gotten charitable status yet. And so we had to return to it unfortunately and then the pandemic happened.
 
26:30
But it's quite a bit of red tape for programs to go through because at that point your dogs are at the highest level of recognition internationally. And it means that you meet the highest, you know, standards of training available and efficacy as far as ensuring that your dogs are being handled well and your clients are representing you well and are managing the dogs appropriately. And so not just any...
 
26:59
dog trainer or business can apply for this standardization at that level. And that I guess that leads my to my next question is what sort of competition do you have locally? Like how many how many people are in this game supplying dogs to people? Oh you know I don't think it's an issue of competition. I think the more people that are professionally properly training dogs out there the better.
 
27:26
where we have issues and I guess our biggest competition is people feeling that they are equipped to put a dog in public because they're watching things like videos online and it's not so much a competition as much as like I guess it does impact what we're doing because then you never know what you're going to encounter in a public place. And then there's definitely some people and trainers that
 
27:55
monopolize and make money off of that by telling people they will support and help train their dogs to be in public places. And again, there's that level of problematic discrepancy where it means that people aren't being properly supported to have their dogs in public. So I wouldn't necessarily say it's a competition issue. But those are the biggest things that I guess. It's a quality issue. And that's, that's where when we have people that come to us and go, oh,
 
28:22
Well, that's a lot of money to fundraise. I'm just going to go and buy a puppy and watch YouTube videos. That's that's where it becomes the most, I guess, problematic. At this point, how many dogs have you and Tessa been able to train? And adding to that, how many trainers have you got working for? Is it just you two running the show or is there is there more behind the scenes?
 
28:46
Um, we've trained 40 plus dogs at this point. We don't have that many teams because we are also because we've been around for 10 years, we're into that cycle of, we do prioritize people who have been approved in our program and already have dogs and we've got dogs retiring and we're needing to place dogs with existing clients. And we have a team of three main staff and then lots of volunteer power. Oh, nice.
 
29:16
And that must be difficult too. I mean, when you work with your own assistance dogs, obviously you're bonded to this animal, perhaps at another level than just a regular pet. So that must be hard to sort of say goodbye and then move into another animal. Yeah, both Tessa and I can attest to that. Like I said, my original guide dog, Pedro, was almost 10 when he retired.
 
29:44
And now I'm on my second guide dog, Starling, who you would have met with me at the leisure fair last time. He's the standard poodle. Yeah. And then Tessa, I'll let you speak to your own, but it's never easy. No, it definitely isn't. An incoming dog has some big cues to fill.
 
30:13
They will feel them in different ways is how I look at it. And so when when a dog like Pedro, for example, he's retired, is it is that because he just can't really do the job anymore? I guess they sort of start to, you know, not do as well just as any human would who's who's getting older. Yeah. And in Pedro's case, he did sustain an injury and you could tell he was kind of like not feeling it as much, not as as a
 
30:42
as keen to work and also being an older dog I think was he reminded me of like the grumpy old man yelling at people to get off of his lawn especially around the younger puppies in training so it got to that point we're like okay buddy it's okay um but in his case he just he has a retirement career now uh my my parents live remotely and uh his job is to supervise
 
31:10
you know, the collection of wood and things and stuff in my dad's workshop. And, and so I think he'll always be a dog with a job to some degree, at least in his mind, don't tell him otherwise. And as much as I wanted him to retire and live out his day directly with me, him being moved to family where he wasn't watching another job was much better for him. That's interesting. Sounds like a real good boy. Yeah. It's pretty incredible.
 
31:39
What else can organizations like DDA be doing or can we do better to support organizations like yourself? We love when we get invitations to come out places. I know we've connected at the leisure fair promoting whenever we have a fundraiser or any kind of participation where we're out in the community is always great. We love getting our dogs out into the community.
 
32:05
with people. We love collaborating with other organizations and figuring out how we can support that collective community between the two organizations. And that's, I think, is the best part and the best way that we can kind of be helped. So before we wrap things up here a little bit, how do people get in touch with you? You can follow us on social media. We have Instagram and Facebook with Lechapote.
 
32:35
We also have a website, leashofhope.com, where people can reach out by email. We do have an office online, but if you ever call it, it usually says that if we don't answer it, because we're out with the dogs, but we will call you back, then it's all available on our website. And definitely coming out and connecting with us in person when we're at events is another good way to find us. Absolutely. Just one sort of
 
33:03
final questions are sort of backtracking a little bit. I'm just interested, always interested in sort of the process of this. If someone comes to you, how long, like you said, some people need to wait 10 years for a dog, not because of your business or anything, but in particular. That's a general stat. If someone comes to you and says, this is what I need, from that point to the sort of the finished product, how long does that take? That process can
 
33:32
be anywhere like, you mean the application of coming in. So the way that that works is that someone goes on to our site, there is a little self-evaluation to decide if, to help you decide if you want to apply. Once we get that in, then there's like a phone interview and an in-person one where we gather what you need. And then basically you have to play the waiting game until you get the email that says we have a dog for you. And that can be anywhere from six months to two years.
 
34:01
We generally try to make sure that if someone is missed in the immediate placement season after they've applied that after that we specifically will look for and train a dog for that individual if they've been approved. And then, as Tessa mentioned, then they spend a year of support in our program before graduating and going off in the world, so it can be a. It's a bit of a process, but it's a lifelong, it's a lifelong learning.
 
34:29
Yeah, absolutely. We'll be in like TESF. Can you speak a little bit about the actual training process for say like a Mobility dog. How long is that and how difficult is that? I mean that must be training dogs to do specific jobs seems difficult because I was very poor at it with dogs, but I mean tell me about that process a little bit
 
34:54
Um, so we, that process is a two year process. The dogs all go through basic obedience and advanced obedience. And then we do task training after that. Um, we do heavily rely on our volunteers as well to take them out in the community and further ensure that the tasking, like teaching them to push a button is.
 
35:24
able to happen in any environment. But a lot of the groundwork starts with the fosters and then their training sessions with us as trainers, where we lay down the baseline and then they build it up from there. Now, can you, is it possible to teach an old dog new tricks or do you have to start with puppies? No, it is possible to teach a older dog.
 
35:51
We prefer puppies, but we can take in a dog anywhere from 12 weeks to two years, as our usual timeline to intake a young dog. All right. So, do either of you have anything else to add today? I mean, I don't think so. I really appreciate you taking the time to connect with us and meet with us. And
 
36:17
And it's just great to connect with some more of the community. Hopefully we'll be able to connect with DDA and some of the other patrons out in the community in the near future. Yeah, absolutely. We'll keep doing it. Well, you have been listening to DDA's Encouraging Abilities podcast. My guests today have been Danielle Main and Tessa Schmidt. They're the founders of Leash of Hope, providing assistance dogs for the disability community. Thank you for joining me today.
 
36:48
Thank you. I am your host, DDA Communications Manager, Evan Kelly, see you next time.