Encouraging Abilities Podcast

Max Brault - Helping Shape the Future of Accessibility

Max Brault was instrumental in helping create the Accessibility Canada Act. While he admits we might not hit the lofty goal of a completely accessible Canada by 2040, the future for people with disabilities remains bright. We caught up with him to talk about his book, "The Race to the Starting Line."

Disability Employment - A Resource that Needs Protecting

The federal government wants to cut 15% in spending for certain programs and services. Advocates are concerned about people with disabilities losing their jobs before anyone else. We chat with Rabia Khedr, National Director of Disability Without Poverty, about disability employment and the new Canada Disability Benefit.

I Only See in Black and White - A Book by Keara Farnan

Navigating this often troubled world can be difficult. As an Autistic person who sees things differently, it can be an obstacle course when it comes to even the simple things like making friends. To build herself up and understand her place in the world is the author and person with autism, Keara Farnan.

The Feeding Group - Helping Families Navigate ARFID

ARFID - Avoidant/Restrictive Food Intake Disorder can affect neurodiverse populations more often than typically developed individuals. In this podcast, we chat with Lauren Hershfield and Elise Fairey, who lead a team of experts in diet and nutrition with their business “The Feeding Group”. Their team supports families who have the disorder to lead happier and healthier lives. 

Wally Jackson and the Probability of Love and Car Accidents

Making a movie is tough. Making one about one's life experiences through the lens of autism, even tougher. We caught up with Austin Wolf, writer and producer of an upcoming independent film, Wally Jackson and the Probability of Love and Car Accidents, which he hopes adds to the greater understanding of the neurodiversity community. And, you know, reaching for your goals and all that...

Respect - A Chat with Down syndrome Self-Advocate Paul Sawka

From writing blogs for the Canadian Down Syndrome Society to planning an autobiography, CDSS Awareness Leader, Paul Sawka does it all. We caught up with the staunch self-advocate in Calgary.

Adelle Purdham: I Don't Do Disability and Other Lies I've Told Myself

Receiving the news that your unborn child has Down syndrome can be a shock to parents. In this Encouraging Abilities podcast, we chat with author Adelle Purdham and her emotionally driven book about what it's like as a parent raising a child with the condition, and how most issues are created largely within ourselves.

The Future is Bright - Students Developing Apps to Aid Disabilities

Not your typical high school students. Jora Singh Nahal and Inbal Tzafrir are motivated and atruistic. The pair of award-winning students are developing applications to benefit the disability community.

Rising from the Ashes - One Man's Life Turns to Advocacy

Mike Shoreman was a regular guy running a paddle-boarding business in Ontario until Ramsay Hunt syndrome struck him down and forced him to re-evaluate his life. Since then he has become a staunch advocate for the disability and mental health communities, showing how overcoming adversity is in all of us.
TRANSCRIPT
Evan:
so welcome back to DDA encouraging abilities podcast. I am your host. DDA communications manager Evan Kelly, today, we're not just talking about cognitive disabilities, but mental health as well adaptability, resilience and overcoming adversity. Joining me to talk about all that, is Mike shoreman.
Now here at DDA, I've been following mike on social media for some time. He is a mental health and disability advocate. Now, Mike is and was a typically developed, developed person and a coach, a paddle boarding coach with paddle Canada, until he was struck down with what's called Ramsay hunt syndrome back in 2018 now, the condition led to severe physical impairments, including loss of mobility, hearing and vision, chronic vertigo, facial nerve collapse, all of this culminating into a mental health crisis. Suffice to say, it was very life changing for Mike.
Perseverance is key. And by 2022, Mike became the first person with disabilities to paddle across all of Canada's five great lakes. So Mike, it's so great to have you here today.
Mike:
Great to Great to be here with Evan. Thanks for having me.
Evan:
No problem now, son, I don't want to give everything away, so I start this with a lot of my podcasts. So tell me a little bit more about Mike schorman.
Mike:
Oh, well, I am a keynote speaker, consultant and advocate. I work with organizations, academic institutions, government agencies, schools to help empower their people. And you know, help, help empower people and improve mental health, education and disability education. I work a lot with human connection. We learned a lot of things out there on the Great Lakes. It wasn't just me who went across them. It was a whole group, a whole team that I built to help support me, so we had to learn how to connect with each other to do these five marathons. But yeah, no, I'm I am just a regular guy who went out and did a big thing, and that was made possible by the support of a lot of incredible humans.
Evan:
Now, Ramsay hunt syndrome, that that's not something that comes up very much. I didn't even know it existed until I started to follow you. Had never heard of this condition. So what is it and how does it affect people?
Mike:
Right? So it's a neurological disorder, condition. It is activated. So what it is is essentially, if you've had chicken pox, chicken pox, once you've had it, it stays in your system, and it remains dormant. So many of us had chicken pox when we were kids. I did I had, I had a very mild case, me too, when I was Yep, and, and then it just stays in your system, and, and it can be awakened later in life as shingles. And, you know, both my grandparents had shingles. Shingles is usually you get shingles in your in your later stages of life.
 
Evan:
Well, ironically, ironically, I had shingles a number of years ago, probably about 20 years ago, when I was fairly young, and the doctor figured it was stress related, but it did happen to me.
Mike:
Right, connection, right? So the Herpes Zoster virus, which is chicken pox, it can be reactivated as shingles when brought on by stress and and so what Ramsey hunt syndrome is is it is shingles, but very specified to when it attacks your eye or your ear. So in my case, it attacked my ear. I ran myself into the ground and wasn't taking care of myself. As I was an entrepreneur and I was running my paddle boarding business, and and ultimately, I worked myself into the ground and wasn't looking after myself well enough. And then, and then, it affected many different things, because it affected my vestibular system as it affected my ear. So Ramsay hunt syndrome can be mild to severe. In my case, it was very severe. The mayor of Toronto, the current mayor of Toronto, Olivia Chow she she had Ramsey hunt syndrome, I think back in 2000 Then eight she and she had to publicly announce it, because, because facial facial paralysis is part of it. And as being in politics, she had to make an announcement that this is not a stroke. This is what this is. And then a couple years ago, Justin Bieber announced that he had it and he canceled his entire world tour.
Evan:
Wow, wow, and so. So for you, what were some of the long term effects?
Mike:
So, what is a chronic condition? So even now, you know six, what are we were five, seven years later, even now, there are days where where my energy is low, or the barometric pressure changes, and I can feel it, or I get tired, and you can tell when my walking or my or my talking or with my speech, But no, I essentially lost my mobility, and I had to work with a vestibular rehab therapist to reprogram my brain ways to walk in a straight line. They said that I would never get back on the water, that I would never paddle board again.
I had to go for, you know, audiology tests and vision tests and and MRIs to rule out brain damage. So, no, it was a, it was a very big adjustment to to a new normal.
Evan:
Yeah, and then, so, you know, you're, you're a paddle boarding business, you're obviously outdoorsy, active kind of guy. Again, back to what I said earlier. Was typically developed. How, how difficult was this, to accept that life just suddenly changed?
Mike:
No, you know, when you acquired, you know, so many Canadians, so many people acquire disabilities later in life. I am just one of them, but it seems like there were so many all at once, and it was incredibly overwhelming. And you know when you lose your when you go from standing on a paddle board teaching people for 1012, hours a day and working for 17 hours a day, to not being able to walk and not being able to drink out of a cup, you know now you have to use a straw suddenly. And you know, when you have a shower because of the vertigo, you have to sit down in the bathtub rather than standing up. You know, all of a sudden, I lost my business. I lost the ability to earn an income. I lost my social life, which is hugely important with connecting with others when we're struggling. I couldn't I couldn't go out. I couldn't see people. So my world went from being very big to very, very small and and ultimately, you know, loss of independence, loss of social life, loss of identity in the world that I had created. And so I just didn't recognize, like, like, like many people who go through through that later in life. I just didn't recognize who I was anymore.
Evan:
Well, when you say later in life, though, that you weren't, I mean, how old were you when this happened? Oh, well, 35 Yeah, it's not very late.
Mike:
No, no, no, yeah, no, I Yeah, no, I was still, I guess still.
Evan:
Yeah, that was same for me when I, when I mentioned that I have shingles, I was probably around even like 28 I was that right? That young when that happened. So I guess we're poster children now for the fact that that can happen, not just later in life. Yeah. So, yeah. So was there a turning point when you realize that mental health needed to be the focus for you?
Mike:
It's dealing with physical stuff is one thing, but there's that whole mental health side of it, absolutely so a big focus on my recovery was placed on physical rehabilitation, but not so much with the mental Health and I was, I ultimately, what it came down to was that I felt like I, you know, I was, I was being looked after. And after months and months and months of this, I felt like I was a burden on other people, and I didn't see, you know, when we, when we go through a. Shift in, in our physicality and in, in, in how we operate and how we, you know, do day to day life. You know, it's it's a, it's a, it's complex. And I wasn't coping I didn't have the coping strategies in place at the time, and so ultimately, I ended up going for a stay in a mental health treatment facility, and it was there that I was set up with counselors and therapists, and I don't advocate for it with everyone. But in my case, it did work. I did go on medication and and it did, it did work well for me and and on the other side of receiving treatment, and, you know, coming out of there with, you know, coping strategies and tools that I could implement. That was when I decided I didn't want other people to ever feel as alone or as hopeless as I felt, and
Evan:
so suffice to say, your adverse, your advocacy that you do right now in life is a direct result of what happened to you. Absolutely yes, yes. And so this, so this inspired you to become a mental health advocate. And so, awareness and support, I guess, is your main goal is that is, I guess is that kind of your full time job? Now? Is that what you do?
 
 
 
Mike:
Yeah, so full time I work, I work with corporate I work with businesses and corporations. I do a lot and and schools, government agencies, nonprofits. I do a lot of conferences and and I work most. Most of it is stress management and burnout production, because that's what happened with me. So you know a lot of organizations who, who have, you know it's competitive out there. So a lot of people who, who have employees in industries who are ambitious and highly competitive. They look at my story and they see, they see the these. They see the face of of what, what can happen, you know. And, and then, and yeah. So I get to work with a lot of incredible, incredible people, and that is, that is my full time, my full time job.
Evan:
Now, when you look back and then you look at your life, now, does it seem weird that you're doing this rather than your business, your other business, I mean, your paddle board business.
Mike:
Yeah, no, it's, it's funny because I get to, I still get to do it. I get to do depending on the time of year and where I am. I've done team building exercises, so I still get to do that. So you know, if a company will have has me in and they want to do a keynote, but then they want to go paddle boarding. We bring in paddle boards or, or we set that up so, so that's really nice. I've got, I've, I've been able to carry that on and still keep, you know, my my toes in that a little bit, which is, which is nice for me.
Evan:
Nice. So what specific changes or outcomes have you seen as a result of your advocacy?
Mike:
So no, I've had some wonderful opportunities in 2022 of course, we created that campaign for jack.org which is Canada's national youth mental health charity, to cross the Great Lakes. So we recreated in 1988 Vicki Keith swam across the Great Lakes to raise funding for children, raise funding and awareness for disability organization that supported children with disabilities and and in 2022 we recreated that, except using becoming the first person to do it on a paddle board. And, and so that that helped create, you know, I don't know the numbers they have set jack.org. Has said this helped create, you know, helped us, you know, create programs and services supplied to 1000s of young people across Canada, so that that always makes me feel good. Yeah, but no, I've been, I've I've had wonderful relationships with several mental health organizations across Canada. I've done some consulting work with the newly launched 988, which is Canada's national suicide prevention hotline, to help them make their help them. Make the national number more accessible for persons with disabilities, because persons with disabilities face mental health challenges five times higher than the national average, yeah, so, so I do a lot of consulting work and and a lot of Connect, you know, connecting with people. In May, I had the honor of keynoting the 34th Annual National Suicide Prevention Conference in Vancouver.
So I've, I connected with mental health organizations all across the country. And from that, I've, I've, you know, they've had me. And so I've worked with my first indigenous communities now, which is highly rewarding, because they, you know, face significant it's a mental health crisis within indigenous communities in Canada, so to go In and connect with people and and, you know, provide education, but but some motivation and hope. Because when people are struggling, that's, that's, that's what they need. They need a reminder to keep going, and that today is today. Might be a dark day, but there, you know, there was tomorrow, and tomorrow can be a little bit better than today.
Evan:
Do you think Canada is succeeding in these kinds of supports? How are we doing? From your perspective,
Mike:
I think we've made significant progress. It's funny today, this morning, Bell shipped me eight massive boxes for balance talk. I do a lot of events during awareness days and months and weeks and and all. And the delivery arrived. But if we look at things like Bell, Let's Talk Day, just as an example, I think we I think it's been around for maybe 2022, years ish now, but corporations weren't talking about mental health before and and many organizations weren't. So we have made significant progress. There's still so much work to do now, I just made a post this week about the prime minister's resignation, because our campaign was I went to Ottawa and met the Prime Minister and and and the post really focused on what has been done within mental health and, and, you know, 988 which is Canada's national suicide prevention hotline that was implemented just, You know, a year ago. So you know, now, if you know people who are in crisis, who are struggling, who really just need someone to talk to, they they have that, and that has come in, you know, just recently, so we have made significant progress. Mental health is is so underfunded across the board, as as our, as our, as our many organizations, but specifically mental health. So no, I think we are making progress. And the more that we have these conversations, the more it's normalized, the more the more the organizations that are here to support individuals, they can benefit from that. So somehow, I think we are, we are making some headway on the right track.
Evan:
So how did your perception of the disability community change when this happened,
Mike:
absolutely so no, I think you know, prior to this, I I had no, I had my my thoughts and my, my. Perceptions of the disability community and what that looked like, and, and, and, and that did not include me. That was, you know, I, you know, I looked at the disability community as as you know, people, people in wheelchairs. And I didn't recognize that, you know, I didn't give it much thought, and I didn't, at the time, realize that, yes, there are invisible disabilities, there are there are invisible, and then there are visible, and and, and then, you know, the different kinds, and how this, how this affects people and and you know, no, it's, it's been a huge learning experience. When I had my paddle boarding business, one of my favorite things that I did, I shut down the business on Friday nights, and I worked with an organization called Autism Ontario, which was a provincially run organization In Ontario for families and persons who have autism and, and, and I did a lot of research and, and I really want, I've always been community oriented, and one of my favorite things was partnering with them. So, so on Friday nights, families would have the opportunity to come out on the water with with me and my business and and after doing a lot of research before even approaching them, I came to the conclusion, with with all of my reading, that that people with autism respond really well to to water, so So by bridging this paddle boarding with them, it was, it was a way, but no, that experience was probably One of my first, my very first experience within the disability community was with the Canadian National Institute for the Blind. I did my high school Co Op with the CNIB back in the very late 90s, early 2000s and I worked with their with their marketing team, and that was kind of my first experience with the disability community. And this year, it kind of came full circle. I just did three, three events with the Canadian National Institute for the Blind in Toronto and Halifax and in Edmonton, speaking at their events as a person with a disability. So it was very interesting, you know, going go, you know, being a high school student, and then, and then, many years later, developing my own disabilities and going and speaking at their organization. It was very true, very interesting.
Evan:
So, that would have been no in terms of your the physical disability that you, that you experienced through this, this syndrome, what would like did you have much of an impression about, you know, how accessible is society? Did you feel or see any limitations and go like i This is so weird to me now, because this was so easy before, and now it's not?
Mike:
Absolutely…so vertigo. Will people who have mobility challenges, who don't use wheelchairs struggle all the time. I remember the first time that I really noticed it. You know, aside from going through the recovery and using a cane to walk and and holding on to someone while they were taking me to my appointments. The first, you know, the core memory, I did an interview with the CBC, and I had to go downtown Toronto. I live just on the outskirts. I had to go downtown. And I came out of that interview. I You, downtown, busy day, and all of a sudden it felt like I was in an earthquake, and I didn't know what to do, because that had never happened to me while I was on my own before, and I had to grab. Grab the walls to support myself, and I've noticed it at different different events. You know, you go over stimulation and sensories, my senses are heightened. So even though I have hearing loss, I also have amplified hearing in my other ear now. So you know, when I go to a concert, I have to wear earplugs in the one ear. Or, you know, the the flashing lights can become too much. So the importance of having sensory rooms or quiet rooms for for persons who, who need to maybe just check out for 1010, minutes, half an hour, just go rest and then kind of restabilize and and then go and integrate back into the activity that they were doing. Is, is, is really important, and I've really seen the need for that in in the past few years.
Evan:
Okay, so we're gonna do one last question about sort of this stuff, and then we're gonna get into more of your the other media that you're getting involved in. So did you ever see yourself as an advocate and doing speaking engagements like this? And how does this compare to your previous life? I sometimes I want, I want to sort of shape this question a little bit, because I, you know, I've heard from other people who've gone through these life changing events where they feel like their life is better because of it?
Mike:
Absolutely, absolutely, no, I agree with that. It's very fulfilling. It's very rewarding. I never saw myself as I gave you know, I went to college for marketing and public relations communications. Yeah. So,
so I were, I worked in a public relations agency in Toronto, and eventually left that. But the reason I went into intra entrepreneurship, you know, I bridged my love of communications and marketing with with people and fitness and and spending it with people and learning about them and their stories. And you know, you I wouldn't just go out and teach someone how to paddleboard. I go out and and have conversations with people, and that's what kept it fresh and kept it fun. Today, I get to travel across the country and work with different organizations and companies and the same thing, connect with with people. And usually after I come off stage or or whatever they they come up with me and and they share their story, and it allows them to to kind of give, gives them space to to acknowledge what, what they've been through. So that's that's incredibly rewarding, and and I get a lot of satisfaction from from being able to do that. Did I ever imagine doing it? No, I did a. I did a in my college course. I i had a class called presentations, and I wasn't that good back then. I've had to bring in a team of, you know, professionals who who specialize in this, to help build out frameworks and and help help me become better, so so that it actually lands properly. But now, if you were to tell my, you know, my presentations teacher from back then he'd probably hang Oh, my goodness, what he what's he doing?
Evan:
So now we, we touched on it a little bit in the beginning. Of course, one of the big things you've done since, since this syndrome affected your life, is you've paddle boarded across all five great lakes. Now that's That is no small feat. How did that all come together?
Mike:
Right? So I started volun. I was volunteering with jack.org and then doing different events to help them.
I built a platform and and profile, and I decided to leverage that and and bring attention to mental health. So I started working with jack.org and. And, and they were wonderful. And, and we built these, these events, and then all of a sudden, COVID hit, and, and so, you know, no events anymore. So we just so I thought about it, and I thought, well, we could still do an event. We just can't bring people together. We just can't bring people together like and I thought, well, I could try to cross. You know, many years ago, Marilyn bells swam across Lake Ontario and in in the 60s and and, and she inspired, she inspired so many swimmers to this day to go from New York State to Toronto and to do that swim. And I thought, well, we can try that on a paddle board. I think the I, you know, I'm back on the board now, and we could train and build this campaign. And so we did and, and ultimately what happened was we got halfway across, and it was called for, for weather and and we raised a lot of money, and we raised a lot of awareness, and but we didn't make it. And, and so I kind of had to go away and and lick my wounds and, and when I came, I had meetings behind the scenes with people and, and I said, you know, how, how far did we go? And they said, You did. You did 76 kilometers. And then I started looking at Vicky Keith's crossings from the Great Lakes, and I realized that her longest crossing was 74 kilometers, and that was the crossing of Lake Huron and and I thought, well, we we, we just went the wrong way. Most people go across, like Ontario, a much shorter route, and we did the long route, and it got camp like the weather, the weather kibosh did so. So we planned this, and then I kind of announced it. And I think everybody was just like, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, okay, you didn't make it across one. So there you're going to do five. And, but no, we designed it so that we were going to do the shortest first, and that was Lake Erie. And we were just going to build them up over a series of months and, and we developed, ultimately, developed this kind of three and a half month campaign around crossing lakes Erie Huron, Superior, Lake Michigan, and finally, Lake Ontario into my hometown.

BC Artist and Author Creates Kids' Books that Focus on Diversity

Roz Maclean is a wonderful artist who hails from the Comox Valley. She has turned her passion and vision into a successful line of children's books that teach inclusion and diversity. www.rozmaclean.com 
 
TRANSCRIPT
 
Evan:
welcome back to DDA encouraging abilities podcast. I'm your host. DDA communications manager Evan Kelly, today, we're talking with Roz McLean now Roz is a local award winning author of children's books that deal a lot with diversity, communications, emotions and inclusion, which, of course, is right up Didier's alley. Roz is also a visual artist and illustrator and an educator in the Comox Valley here in British Columbia. She likes to investigate ideas of human nature, diversity, relationships, community, mental health, interconnection and the natural world through an anti oppressive and LGBTQ and inclusive feminist lens. They've written a couple of books illustrated even more, in addition to having a portfolio of artwork that covers abstract ink drawings animals, one set of works called insufficient arts art, rather which focuses on British Columbians with disabilities. That and more can be found at Roz mclean.com and I'll say this a couple of times, it's Roz with NAC mclean.com
Roz. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Roz:
Yeah, thanks so much for having me now.
Evan:
I always begin my podcast with you know, people I've never met before. So tell me a little bit about a little bit about yourself?
Roz:
Well, yeah, I'm a children's book author, illustrator, and I'm on Vancouver Island in the Comox Valley on the traditional territories of the Comox people. I have a dog. I live here with my husband.
I like to go in the forest, yeah, I don't know. It's, it's, it's funny to try to sum yourself up.
Evan:
I mean, you, you obviously do a lot of art. Art is your is that you're like, the number one passion in your life.
Roz:
Ah, I think, I mean, it's definitely been a common thread throughout my life, and it's funny, I guess when your passion becomes like your job, because it is my passion, and now it's also my job. So it doesn't always feel so passionate, but it's been a really common, consistent, yeah, thing in my life that I've always turned to and enjoyed doing is that something you studied in the past,
I'm really lucky that I grew up in a really, like, arts and rich environment with my family. My parents are both artists, and my mom worked at like, arts umbrella when I was growing up, so do have classes there. And I grew up in North van as well, and they had, like, lots of enrichment stuff going on in their school district. And then I also went to Emily Carr and SFU for a little bit. I didn't finish up degrees there, but I was there for a little while. And then, yeah, and then I'll just take classes, like, here and there. It took, like, infection course one time. So I'm always learning, yeah, and because, it's because
Evan:
I look at your art on your your portfolio on Instagram and stuff like that. And it's, it's, it's, you run a lot of different styles, and it seems like quite a bit of different mediums. I just love your your ballpoint pen work. It's really, really detailed and very realistic. So you've got some obviously, influence from all over the place, and not just one particular, particular medium or style.
Roz:
Yeah, yeah. All over the place is a really great way to describe it. That's how I feel a lot of the time. I'm very much like, Oh, what about this? They're like, Ah, I could do that. And it's very like, kind of counterbalancy, like, I'll work on something really detailed for a while, then I'll be like, Oh man, I really need to, like, feel like I want to do something more loose and abstract. So yeah, all over the place is a great, great way.
Evan:
You mentioned your your work. It's your passion has become your work. So is this a full time thing for you?
Roz:
Whether books, yep, yep, I'm author, illustrating is what I'm up to these days, which is amazing. I don't know. Not many people can say that that's that's quite an accomplishment. Yeah, I feel really lucky, very grateful.
Evan:
So what inspires you?
Roz:
Definitely, like life experience. And I think, like, I have a lot of big feelings about like the world.
Evan:
I mean, the election just happened in the US. I don't know when this podcast will be coming out, but it happened, like, a couple days ago and like, so you know that it brings up all these big ceilings, and it
can be really hard to know what to do with all of that, and to feel very
Roz:
Yeah, to for me, I can get kind of like, stuck. And and so art isa place to kind of put that energy and all those feelings and kind of the dreams that I have, and I know many people have, for like, hey, things could be different and better. So I think I'm really inspired by by envisioning just better possibilities.
And I'm also really inspired just by like ideas of connection, like connection to nature, like I am, where I am right now. There's like, tons of forests and ocean and wildlife and everything, which feels really great, but yeah, nature is also always been something that I found really inspiring and awe inspiring,
yeah, and I've inspired also by other artists. Like, it's, it's just really cool to see what people do. And it's always, yeah, I'm, I'm often blown away by other artists too, and it's very invigorating.
Evan:
Yeah, we're, we actually run a very robust art program through DDA for for a lot of our adult clients, and I'm just, they just took part in possibilities. Now, possibilities is another organization here on the lower mainland, and they do an annual art show and sale every year inclusion. They call the inclusion art show and sale and, yeah, stuff our clients come up with, and other people with disabilities, and specifically for the disability community, the stuff they come up with just absolutely mind blowing. And it's, and it's, obviously, it's very affordable art, and it's, you know, I would always encourage people to come to DDA website. We've got a lot of our artists showcase there as well.
Roz:
So that's really cool. Yeah, absolutely. Now your books deal a lot with inclusion and diversity. Why is this so important to you?
Roz:
Um, I think the idea of inclusion and, yeah, diversity, they've been a really, like, core care throughout my life, and, like, my family's life. My older brother has an intellectual disability and and Yeah, and so we him, and I went to school in like, the 90s, and inclusion was like a very new idea. And so I really watched my brother and my family, like navigate that and do a lot of advocacy work, and yeah, to just see the bumps that would come up and the limits and the barriers that were in the way to inclusion and acceptance and to just kind of come up against all these, like old ideas. So that was just something I think that's like very core to, like, all of my memories.
And then I also ended up working in schools as a special education assistant and intervener. And intervener is someone who works with students, students and individuals who are deaf, blind and and yeah. And that was another area where I just got to see, like, all the possibilities that I encountered with the students I was working with,
yeah. Yeah. And then also, kind of, like, what structures are in the way in those school experiences that I came across. So I think that, like throughout all of that, and throughout just like what I've been like, you know, reading and learning and everything I just, I have this, like, very core belief that, like, every person has value and and diversity is very valuable. And these kind of, like norms of,of like abledness And like, just expecting people to be one way that's like, this super productive way, like, it's just, it's not good for anybody. But also, you know, I see how many people get left behind andand aren't cared for under that scenario. So, yeah, it's just like, it's in my heart. So I just, I feel it and I think about it.
Evan:
Well, that's great. So what is the inspiration? You know, we'll get right into your books here. Like, what is the the inspiration behind more than words, that's, that's, that's more of your newest, newest one, isn't it?
 
 
Roz:
Yeah, yeah, that's the most recently released book I have. And so the full title is more than words, so many ways to see what we mean. And the inspiration for that really came from working in school. I worked in vancouver public schools for 11 years. And yeah, like I said, So supporting students with disabilities and who are deaf, blind and so communication was, like a very recurring theme like that was especially students who are deafblind. Part of that role was figuring out communication systems that were like, especially for how those kids were interacting with the world, andyeah, and then so. And then the other part of that was like, communicating with the rest of the class and the rest of the school and the rest of the staff about, like, okay, like, this is how the students communicate.
And so there are the specifics of that that are unique to whoever is, you know, using alternative communication. But then there are also those, like, general conversations. It's like, yeah, like, we don't just talk by talking. We we communicate in all these different ways, and that's really normal, like we all do that. And it's also, you know, normal and common for there to be people who don't communicate through talking.
And then part of it too was Yeah, so I really wanted to normalize that, and then I really wanted to provide something for educators who are in those space, who might not feel super confident to like lead those conversations all on their own, like they might not feel like they had all the knowledge or tools, but they might still want to have those conversations. And of course, you know, like a teacher might not have a student who is non speaking in their class, but maybe there's students in the school, or just in their community, there's people, and so they want to have those conversations, and then so I think a book is just a really easy way to start having those conversations and start discussions now talk about the main character In this in the book more than words.
Evan:
Oh yeah. Is this person? Yeah, because I don't have the book in front of me. Is they? Are they deaf, blind or communication in some other way?
Roz:
Oh, no. So yeah, that's great question. His name is Nathan, so he's a young boy, and the premise with Nathan, it's a book starts and it says that Nathan doesn't say much, but he has a lot on his mind, and so we never really learn why Nathan doesn't say much. And I wanted to leave that open like it could be because Nathan has a communication disability, and it could be because Nathan's really anxious. It could be because maybe Nathan doesn't know English, so I wanted to leave that open. But the way that Nathan, he's really interested in, in building, or like digging puddles in the in the schoolyard, in like with the rain when it comes like to to make canals and everything and connect them. And so he kind of tries to reach out to friends to play with them, but they don't really like get it.
And then through his story, we are also introduced to all these other kids in the school who communicate in these different ways. So, you know, there's things like the iPad or sign language, or even just like wearing different kinds of clothes or or drawing or painting. So, yeah, and then, so eventually he he does make connections with other students, but it's in a bit of a non traditional way.
 
Evan:
And so how do you like? How take me through that process? How do you formulate this idea, from from start to finish, where you know, how do you develop the story and and then, of course, the accompanying artwork to go along with it.
Roz:
Yeah, yeah. So I've, I've found that every book is different. That I've been working on for more than words that was actually had many different shapes before it finally landed on the story that that's in the book right now. So what I really wanted to do is, have, you know, a main character, but also have it not just be the main character story. So I really wanted to find a way to, like, kind of traveled through all these different modes of communication, and so it actually was quite tricky to figure out how to tie those things together. It's not really a common way of telling stories in published like, and the kind of thing that comes up when you're like, submitting things to publishers is, like, they do have, like, you know, specific formats they're that they're more used to and comfortable with. So it took a couple of iterations and a couple of, like, sending it out, and then the publisher would be like, Oh, I like this. But like, Could this be different? And so there were, like, different characters and different it started out much more simple. It started out with it was more just kind of like, this is what communication is about. And then like, kind of just going through these different modes. And then eventually it became more and more like main character driven. Actually, once I did get connected with my publisher, they actually, we decided to make the book longer so there was more room. Yeah, because yeah. So this is getting in the weeds a little bit. But, like, often publishers 32 Yeah, I know often a book is 32 pages long, so when you like, submit, you kind of, like, plan on that. But they offer, yeah, yeah, yeah, for a kid's book, for a picture book, but they were able to make it 48 pages, so that gave us a lot more room to balance Nathan's story and the rest of the content of the book. So yeah, it was a lot of, yeah, yeah. By the by the last kind of draft, I, like, knew about Nathan, but I didn't like, exactly know his, like, journey in the story and how that was kind of luck.
Evan:
Now, given a lot of back and forth, would you at all, pardon me, be drawing on your experiences as a teacher's assistant in Vancouver and stuff like that.
Roz:
Oh, totally Yeah. Like Nathan's digging pedals in the field, and that's like, such a vivid memory of just remembering being out of recess with the kids, and they're all in there, in the pedals with their shovels and whatnot. So yeah, it's very flashing back to that work. No, I don't want to ask about how the story ends or anything like that. Don't want to give anything away. People can buy the book.
Evan:
Is a happy ending, so that's good. And you've got a lot of press on this. This was even featured on CBC kids, wasn't it?
 
 
Roz:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's really fun. Now, is that something you you help do, or is that something that, does the publisher sort of take that on and connect the dots?
Roz:
That's a great question. They are definitely they kind of take on that whole side. I don't know the exact mechanisms, but that was just something that I got, like, an email about one day, it's like, Oh, that's great. So stuff like that, it's always like a wonderful surprise, yeah, that always helps. Help, hopefully helps, yeah. Now, in terms of, like, sort of,
Evan:
Now, back to the to the sort of, the research and the communication for this particular book, did you have to do any sort of research on different types of communication for people who might be non verbal.
Roz:
Yeah, I did, yeah, because there was a communication system that I was like familiar with from working in schools, and then one area that I especially ended up researching was spelling to communicate. We have a family friend who, he lives in the US, but he spells to communicate, and, yeah, he's autistic and non speaking and, or minimally speaking, yeah, and, and he, he like writes about that and shares about his journey and how that kind of looks. And then so through the introduction of that, I went, and I like researched spelling to communicate a lot more. So that was, I think, the main area where I like it was more brand new to me. I was like, Oh, I hadn't really heard about this before, and I don't, I hadn't come across that in my work before, so I don't know how common that is here
Evan:
So moving on, a little bit of might be jumping around a little bit in terms of your your books library here, yeah, I am older, I am new. I am odd. I am new. Oh, I am odd. I am odd, I am new. Yeah. Now you didn't write this one. This was a book based on an autistic author, Benjamin Giroux. Was this something of a collaboration? Like, why this particular poem?
Roz:
Yeah. So we actually we're connected. We share an agent. So Benjamin had written this poem, and it like, really took off. And like, so a little background is that, for the listeners, is that Benjamin was 10 years old when he originally wrote the poem, and it was a school assignment, yeah. And so it kind of like took off, like on the internet and went viral, and he was like in the news and everything and so, and it was about his experience being autistic and how that felt for him. And it's a really beautiful rhyming poem, and quite touching and profound. And so they shared an agent, and they were looking to partner with an illustrator to like, pitch the book, yeah, so I ended up making up a couple pieces for that, and then we pitched it around. And then I got picked up.
Yeah, they did, yeah, they did give, like, input on the art before we moved forward and everything. So it was collaborative, like, a little bit like, it was more collaborative than like, if people, if authors and illustrators work together through a publisher, they usually don't really talk at all about the artwork. So it was more collaborative than that, but it was, it was matching his existing poem and creating art for it.
Evan:
Well, that sounds that sounds good.
Once again, for listeners that that book is called I Am odd. I am new by Benjamin. So if you're talking about 42 pages, that seems like an awful lot of artwork. How long does it take you to develop all the artwork for these books?
Roz:
A long time. Yeah, so I work, and it does depend on the book, but I work with traditional media, and I also will scan it in, and then do a bit of digital work as well, but it'll take me, I'd say, like, at least, like, six months to do everything to do, like the refs, and then they approve it, and then you make the artwork, and then you there's a bit of back and forth. So it always takes a substantial amount of time.
Evan:
Now, as an artist, do you sometimes submit some art for a book and they go, No, do it again. We don't like it.
Roz:
Oh, well, luckily, the system we have is I'll submit like sketches, and they'll respond to the sketches, and then so if things aren't working, then they let me know at that stage. And so by the time it's finished, there might be like, a little tweak, like, oh, this area needs to be better to read the text or whatever. But like, by the time I submit the final art, I'm not being told to redo anything.
Evan:
So, another book coming out, together a forest.
When's that slated for for publication? Or is it out already next spring? Next spring, next spring. 2025, yeah.
Roz:
So together, it is available for pre order now.
Evan:
Oh, is it okay? Good, good, good. So tell me a little bit about this book.
Roz:
Yeah. So this book is, it's about a class, and they go on a field trip to a forest, and there's one main character named Joy, and when they get to the forest, this class has an assignment from their teacher, and they have to pick one thing from the forest that they really like, resonate with, and they're supposed to draw that thing. And it's like a class art project. And so all the kids are choosing one part of the forest, so like mushrooms, or like ferns or like a squirrel. And as they choose,
we spend a bit of time with them, and we learn about kind of how they're relating to that element, and also how it it shows something about, you know, their personality or like, how they relate to the world.
And it also like highlights, either like an element of like neurodiversity or disability. And then joy, the main character, she has a really hard time knowing what to choose. So that's kind of part of the story.
And yeah, and then things happen. And then there's the story. But that's the main premise, nice. And that's kind of is tying in, sorry, it's kind of tying in like E College, ecological diversity and and human diversity. It's coming, covering some important bases.
Evan:
So yeah, now once again, before I even go further, these books are of course, are they just available on Amazon? How do people get a hold of them?
Roz:
Um, wherever books are sold. People can get them if a bookstore doesn't have them, which they don't always, they can be ordered. So indie bookstores can order them too. And like, yes, book, the books are available on Amazon, just wherever you buy books.
Evan:
And do you have links available on your website as well?
Roz:
I do, yeah, yeah, and on the Instagram as well, excellent, the most active on my Instagram, but
Evan:
We're following you now, by the way. And once again, that is Roz mclean.com And yet another book slated for publication in 2026 correct, a mystery, a wonder,
Roz:
Yeah, yeah, that's the one I'm working on right now, and what's literally painting away this morning. No, I'm in the middle, oh, process, yeah. It's okay. Sometimes they need break. It's what you probably saw was the like announcement for the publisher acquiring that title.
Evan:
Yeah, yeah, in the thick of it. Do you want to talk about that one? You just want to leave it under wraps for now.
Roz:
Oh yeah, I can talk about it a little bit. So the mystery wonder is, it's basically, it's more like a poem, I guess, and it explores all these different vignettes of darkness. So like, you know, nocturnal animals, or like the deep sea, or like caves or watching shooting stars, so it's, it's going through all these kind of different scenarios, and, yeah, and hopefully revealing some ways of kind of being with the dark and the unknown and uncertainties that are, that are maybe new for readers,
and so that maybe they're Not so scary after all, kind of a thing, yeah, yeah. And it's not super, not super overt with that message, but yeah, that's, I think, definitely one of the takeaways.
Evan:
That's good, and that's, that's your that's for 2026,
Roz:
Or a solid year from that, good, good, good, yeah, yeah. So it's really interesting. The publishing process just takes a long time.
Evan:
Yeah, well, sounds like it, sounds like it. And do they just, this is more of a technical publishing question, because I just have no idea about this stuff. When they, when they, when they, they, when the publisher has, okay, we've got your book. We're gonna print, like, So and so amount of copies, or do they just sort of do it by order?
Roz:
Oh, I think they print a number of copies, like how? And I don't know how they make that decision, but they, yeah, they print a bunch of copies, and then they try to sell those. And then I think they can do a reprint if they need to,
Evan:
Good, good, yeah, well, I'm hoping it's in the millions.
Roz:
Oh, yeah, that'd be great.
Evan:
Okay, so the one thing I mentioned in the at the intro, this is the insufficient art project. Tell me about that. What was that all about?
Roz:
Yeah, yeah. So that was in 2021 is when that got released. So the insufficient art project was a series of portraits and interviews I did. And it was through a grant that I got a digital original grant from the Canadian Arts Council Council. And it's a series of portraits and interviews of people, indeed in BC who either had experience or relying on the disability assistance benefit. And so, as you can probably guess by the title, it was about that not being enough for people to survive on. And so, yeah, it exists as a website, insufficient Art project.ca,
Evan:
It's also insufficient art project on Instagram, so you can see an e book and on the website, there are the interviews in the portraits as well. No, you've also done, I mean, your artwork runs the gamut, as we talked before, the, you know, detailed ink drawings to your piece with hands, all your hands forming the, all the letters of American Sign Language, which is really, really detailed. Two simple, colorful, butter, fun little butterflies and stuff, and the portraits of the now, the portraits of the BC coalition of poverty reductions members and staff. Was that part of the insufficient art project? Or was that something different? It was a different thing, but it was related in that they saw the insufficient art project, and then they wanted to commission portraits in that style.
Roz:
So, yeah, I think, I believe they had a grant as well. So they wanted to highlight their membership and the people doing activism through portrait part.
Evan:
And then what did they do with those portraits?
Roz:
They have them on maybe, I don't know. I think some of them have them on their website. But also it was so that the membership could use the portrait, and some of the membership shows to get, like, photography portraits. So it was so that they could use them in, like, an activism context. So it's like if they were sending out something for press or or interfacing, I guess, on like a public level, that they could have that to represent themselves.