Friday May 17, 2024

Theatre Terrific - Expanding the Horizons for Anyone With the Acting Bug

Laen Herschler knows his live theatre. The UBC PhD student has taken the reins of Vancouver's inclusive Theatre Terrific and encourages anyone of any ability to get involved.



Theatre Terrific – Expanding the Horizons for Anyone With the Acting Bug



Okay, we are back for another edition of DDA's encouraging abilities podcast. I am your host DDA communications manager, Evan Kelly. Today we are talking theatre. Joining me today is Lon Hershler, the brand new artistic director of Vancouver based Theatre Terrific. Theatre Terrific production and classes are for artists of all abilities to develop performance skills and collaborate in the production of theatrical works. All of Theatre Terrific's classes, workshops, community and professional productions are



are made up of people of all colours, abilities, genders, and backgrounds. It started in 1985. Theatre Terrific is now Western Canada's longest running inclusive theatre program. It has won numerous awards over the years. And now with Lon at the helm, the future is even brighter. So thanks for joining me today, Lon. It's great to be here. Thanks so much. Now that the gear is working, we can do this. So tell me, tell me a little bit about yourself.



So yeah, I'm really happy to be jumping in here with Theatre Terrific. I've been actually involved with Theatre Terrific as an artist for about six or seven years, working with Susanna, the previous director. I'm an artist, I'm a theatre artist of many different areas of theatre. I do direction, I suppose, artistic direction now.



But my background's really all over the board with theatre as an artist in many different directions and ways. And yeah, quite a while with... So you'd say that theatre acting, that's your lifeblood, that's who you are.



So I would say that I began as an actor and that's where I entered in. I entered in through the joy of acting in theatre and I continue to act, but I've been a teacher and a facilitator of theatre, I'd say predominantly for the last 10 years. And so really working with others to create theatre, devise theatre often, helping others to...



create works of theatre, also doing improv theatre. I do a lot of playback theatre, which is improvise, storytelling and community. So yeah, I have a love for the acting, but I would say I've been facilitating and supporting others in their acting for the last 10 years. Now, are you still an instructor at UBC?



Yeah, so I'm in the midst of doing a PhD. So I started off after my master's degree in South Africa. I did a master's degree in theatre making in South Africa and lived there for about four years and then returned and taught at UBC Okanagan in the theatre department, in the creative studies.



and it was a very alternative theatre department, really helping theatre artists create their own work. And I worked in that for on and off for about five or six years. And then I decided to go further in my studies, in my academic studies, when I moved to Vancouver and I'm doing a PhD and also teaching on the side at UBC as well.



Yeah. So what's your PhD gonna be in?



So interestingly, the work I do at UBC is in something called research-based theatre. And so what I've been doing is supporting academics of all disciplines who want to use theatre as a medium to reach perhaps community, to reach larger audiences, to make their work sometimes make the ivory tower, so to speak, more accessible to...



people that wouldn't necessarily open up an academic journal and read an article, but are definitely implicated and interested in the work that's being done, but would never necessarily have access to it for various reasons. And so theatre becomes this medium, this space for people to interact with new ideas, with research that has gone into community. And in fact, overlapping with a theatre terrific's work.



One of the major projects I've worked on for the last three years has been around a project with People in the healthcare professions across the board so social work medicine Really nursing anything that that intersects with healthcare and People who work in those professions, but also live with a disability and their experiences So there was a very large research project



into the experiences of individuals with hidden disabilities or disabilities that were not hidden and their experiences, the stigmas they might have faced in those jobs. And so then we created a piece of theatre that has been since touring online and in person for three years and it's been very, very successful. And that's not part of Theatre Terrific, that's something else? No, that was not part of Theatre Terrific.



Other than, I suppose, because of my involvement, I create a link between those two worlds, but it wasn't under the umbrella of Theatre Terrific, yeah. Now that, what's that piece called? That piece is called Alone in the Ring. Alone in the Ring. Yeah. And that's sort of touring now, can people go see that? No, I mean.



When I say touring, it wouldn't be, it's not touring in the sense of professional theatre touring to theatres. It would be that we would do a lot of conferences. We'll do medical conferences. We will do all sorts of different, we will do, in fact, like this summer, the incoming students for the physiotherapy and occupational therapy departments at UBC.



all of their incoming classes, first and I think second years, will do the performance for. And it'll become a performance that then becomes a talking point and a place of discussion and engagement with these issues with the students. So these will all be students that, you know, hopefully in a couple of years will be coming out and working in the workforce. And now they're going to have this higher degree of interest and familiarity and consciousness and awareness.



around these experiences of people with disability. And for themselves, if they are students, because there are quite a few who live with disability themselves, amongst the students, this becomes a space and hopefully a safe space for them to start talking with others about their own experiences and creating openness and awareness around that, yeah. Yeah, gotcha, gotcha. So it's really just more of a big education piece, educating people on sort of intersections of...



abilities basically and broadening their own horizons as students as they enter the workforce. That sounds like sort of a new way of teaching in a way. I could see that expanding into a whole bunch of other sectors maybe. Yeah, I mean it's definitely something that's growing. The idea of theatre, we're at UBC not maybe the first to do this. It's happening but



there's been a growth in this and people are starting to open to it and see. There was a lot of pushback at first, you know, in universities, they, they, they go, is that, you know, how can you bring the arts into, is that going to, you know, they, they are also ethical concerns. They think, Oh, is this, you know, are you, is it going to really represent the, the stories accurately of these, you know, research participants? Are their stories going to be really well represented?



And so we have to go through a lot of work of thinking through ethically, of discussion, of going back to the research participants and saying, does this represent you? Does this represent your story? And if there are participants who wanna perform or be a part of it, that's always the ideal in this particular show. None of the participants were performing, but they were involved often in giving feedback. And yeah, so it's something that's growing.



and hopefully there'll be more of this that's gonna happen in different sectors for sure. Yeah, that sounds really interesting and a good way to learn. Why did you get involved with Theatre Terrific?



Wow, because first of all, I met Susanna and Susanna who as maybe some of your listeners may know or those who don't know was the founding artistic director of Theatre Terrific for 20 years, more than 20 years. And she is a wonderful human being and brings so much joy and passion to the work she does. And when I first met her, her energy was so warm and inviting.



And when she told me about what she was doing, I said, you know, and I was already very involved in what you would call applied theatre, which is working a lot in community with theatre, seeing, like I said, that one example of the university, but I'd been working in lots of different ways where we see the power of theatre in so many that it doesn't just have to be on Broadway, that theatre, but theatre has this power to...



capture the minds and imaginations and spread joy and ideas in so many different directions and involve people in different things. And so when I met Susanna and I heard about the company, she was just, and I said, how can I be involved? And at first I just came in as an artist and I just volunteered my time and I just participated and I learned from Susanna how the company works. And I just.



became involved as an artist and I learned so much from everybody that was involved. Theatre Terrific is an incredible space. It's, you know, it's a really, as an artist I learned a lot and as a human being I learned a lot. And so I think there's not always, as an artist sometimes it feels like you're either sacrificing one or the other.



You either are going into the really mainstream theatre and sometimes you feel like you have to sacrifice a part of your humanness to try and make it and struggle in the industry. And on the other hand, sometimes you can feel like on the other hand, you have to sacrifice your art in order to be a part of community building. And then suddenly I found this wonderful nexus, this space that was for me nourishing both of those things.



And that's what drew me to Theatre Terrific and keeps me here. More than just here, there's a new artistic director. Now, how many people are involved in this theatre group? And how many people are differently abled, in a sense? And obviously you don't have any interest in turning anybody away, so you're gonna typically develop people, you're gonna have people with physical disabilities or people with cognitive disabilities. Is it just...



Describe the group to me.



Yeah, I mean, so it's a community. It's a community in the sense that we're not like a theatre company that has a fixed group of individuals that always perform in our plays or always, it's a community that people, some people may come on just for the classes. We offer all sorts of amazing and diverse classes from drum making to theatre creation to dance to, you name it, choral singing.



we offer these different classes and somebody might come in for a class. Other people might wanna stay and be a part of, they might audition for one of our productions and be a part of that. And so there are people that would come for one class and people that come for all of our classes and are in the shows. And so the community is quite expansive and then you have to stay over the years. So some people might come for two years in a row and then...



They take a hiatus and come back three years later, but they're always part of the community. And often they're coming to see the shows and that's all a community of people that... And so I would say that expansive community, that family of theatre terrific is hundreds of people. And then on any given year in the classes, you might have, let's say, 50, 60 people that will be involved in our classes, 70 people that will be involved in our classes over...



a particular season, a particular year. And those people may have been many years in the company, others are coming for the first time. And in terms of the percentage or the diversity, it really, we are, I say, radically inclusive in the sense that we're not asking people to disclose, and therefore we're gonna accept you because you disclose a certain type of disability.



but we make it well known in the community that we do not turn anybody away. And in fact, we encourage everybody to come in and by creating that inclusive space, not by necessarily saying you have to, these are the requirements, but by saying we are gonna make this space as inclusive and possible for everybody that wants to come. I think we get a name for ourselves out there and people very, very diverse. I think people that would never have a chance.



to be in another theatre company or coming into our theatre company and into our space because of that accessibility, because of that openness and that inclusion. And so I would say in my, it's hard to give you a percentage and some people have hidden disabilities and other people don't. But I would say, for instance, in our theatre creation class right now that I'm running with my dear friend, Angelo, we would...



have around 15 to 17 participants. And I would say, you know, 90 to 95% of that would identify as having a disability. Now, you know, very, very, very diverse in terms of that, so yeah. So like in terms of your performances, what's the goal of theatre director? I mean, maybe you've got different goals now that you're taking the artistic director seat.



How many productions would you like to do a year? Where can people see them, that kind of thing?



So we often at the end of each class, so for the theatre terrific, I'll give that example, because we're doing it at the end of each class, we'll do a very small showing of something we've done in that class. That'll be usually an intimate showing for the community of people, but people that might be interested in the class in future years would be able to come maybe to see one of those showings and they could reach out to theatre terrific and find out when those are happening. Those are more informal and more.



community. And then we have larger productions like our Harvest Festival production, which is usually in the last few years has been always timed with the Fringe Festival. So we will create a show this summer and that'll be quite a large production in the sense that that'll be a large cast production. So we usually include about a minimum of 10 performers in that production. And that'll be



in early September, so I think the Fringe Festival this year is September 5th to 15th, and we will perform at the venue which is an outdoor venue on Granville Island, which will be advertised with the whole Fringe Festival and will also be all the dates and times which I'm not fully sure of yet, I don't know if those things have been decided yet.



will be up very soon and they'll be on our website and they'll be also advertised through the Fringe Festival. And so that'll be our big production. And then we have all sorts of other productions that happen during the year. For instance, we're working on another production called Tree Drum, which is with Bill and Bill has been working with Theatre Terrific far longer than me. I don't even know when he began. He's been working.



probably over a decade with Theatre Terrific. And this is Bill's baby project. It's very dear to him and dear to us. It's a story of his, really his story of growing up as an indigenous man, but as a young indigenous person being taken away from his home. And...



and also then his journey to now drum making and the work that he does with drums where he leads the drum making classes in our theatre terrific. But the show which is being created is around his story and will also include for the audience a small circle in the audience to create a drum during the performance.



So it's going to be quite an incredible piece. Yeah, during the performance. Well, as a director myself, that sounds very intriguing. No, it's okay. Yes, I think it's going to be quite an interesting piece. And so we're going to work on that again this year, this summer. Yeah, it's... And then there's another youth piece that we're going to be working on, a youth project where we're going to be inviting...



younger community members to take part in that and we'll create a show based upon that, the details to emerge. But really the best way to get to know about what we're doing is to to check out our website and to link in with us on social media where you'll kind of get all the updates about when shows are happening and when you can see something and when you can partake it in something. So you know it's



and be a part of the community, how you can be a part of the community. Yeah. So do people, I assume because you're so inclusive that you don't need to have a whole lot of theatre experience to take part in some of this stuff. Yeah, great question. So that's a huge part of the inclusion kind of dimension is to also not limit people to somebody that's necessarily gone through a theatre school or had a lot of



background in theatre, we do include everybody, but I would say, or not and, I would say that we make our classes such that anybody can participate, but that everybody's gonna be pushed to a higher level. So that we don't, just because somebody doesn't necessarily have a background, that doesn't mean that they get a...



a card to kind of sit back and say, oh, well, I don't have experience, so I can't push myself. No, we demand of everybody a kind of level of artistic engagement. And that becomes also something that I think people really appreciate that people may think, oh, it's really inclusive. So therefore, we're gonna drop down the level to include everybody. But that's not what theatre terrific is. Theatre terrific is about exactly.



Exactly, you got it. Now in terms of so for people who do have disabilities, maybe visible disabilities, what kind of support do they get from from those running the class or like are people that run the class trained to deal with certain disabilities in any in any way?



So, I mean, training does happen along the way. And I would say all of our work is constant training. It's, we're constantly learning and having discussions about how we can better serve the community and how, you know, with everybody that's involved. And so we're constantly, I think, improving our practices. And, you know, I can speak to that more, but the, in general, in our classes, for instance,



we encourage if people regularly do have a caregiver, that that caregiver is included in the class. And so there are certain individuals that will have a caregiver with them in the class if they need that kind of support. And then that caregiver often is encouraged to be a part of that class also artistically. And so that becomes an interesting part of it as well, where nobody gets, nobody's exempt.



and everybody gets to participate and everybody's part of the process. And so in that sense, we'll have support workers, we'll have caregivers that at certain times will be a part of it. And those that are not with a caregiver, you know, each person at the beginning of each theatre creation class right now that we're doing will be in a circle and there's always a space for people to say they're evolving.



access needs that day because not everybody's needs are the same this week as they are next week and for different reasons. You know sometimes there are yes physical needs and access needs that we've got to be aware of from the beginning and and we know about them and we're supporting and then there are other emotional needs uh different changing circumstances in a person's life that need to be stated at the beginning of a class.



And so we created really a space where everybody states their needs. I'm gonna need this today. I need everybody to know. Yeah. And we find that, since we've been doing that, people are opening up and allowing everybody to know what they need and that creates a space where everybody's needs are met. Now, obviously there are situations where things happen and we realize that...



you know, we need to improve our race. And that's part of theatre terrific as well is that, you know, if somebody says, well, you know, like something happened to me last class, which really didn't make me feel included, or I felt that my needs were not being met, then we take it really seriously. And we sit down with that person, if they're, you know, able for conversation, we talk it through, or we bring in, and we have done this, we bring in advisors from, you know.



different parts of the community because we're so inclusive. There's so many different needs and we can't be experts in everything. And so, you know, we'll bring in somebody from, we'll bring in an advisor from, you know, let's say, you know, one example is coming to my head was we had somebody from the blind community and they felt that, you know, something was lacking in the way that we were doing it. And they wanted to see us improve our accessibility for people in their community. And so we brought in somebody.



to give a whole training for our staff around that community specifically and how we could make it more accessible to them. And so that's how we work. You know, we the best we can. And then you met you then you've just reached another level. It's instead of universal design, you've got universal theatre. Is there an age limit for this these programs or are you mainly targeted towards adults? For our classes, we it's it's adult.



However, like I said, we have different programs and that's something that we would like to to evolve is to have something maybe more of a youth program as well. But within the adult range, definitely no upward limit. In terms of youth, like I said, we've got a specific youth program that we're hoping to launch this year. So stay tuned for that.



But yeah, our main classes are usually for adults. That being said, that could be from, I don't know, it's a good question. I'm not 100% sure where we would draw the line. I don't know that I know the official line, but we have people in the class that are 17, 18, so I guess they would qualify as youth. Yeah, I guess so. There's a whole other market there for even kids younger than that that I think could



tapped into, which would be amazing. So expand a bit more on Harvest. This is your big annual production. What's any idea what this year is going to be about? Have you started working on that? So a little bit, definitely drawing the team together, thinking through some ideas. We one of the ideas that I had or one of the ideas that I want to kind of like



encourage us to continue developing inside of Theatre Terrific is that, so I'll back up for a second, the harvest, and this might inform the way I explain it, the harvest is this idea of a show that kind of, like the name suggests, brings together, is like the harvest of all the work we've done that year. So if all of our classes and all of our...



different projects are building skills and building community and building ourselves as theatre artists. The show becomes a way for us to kind of, in a little way, tie things together and, or bring out and harvest a lot of all of that. That doesn't mean that everybody that was involved all in the way is in the Harvest show, but it means that things that came up that...



beautiful moments and ideas and skills that were developed over the year come together in a beautiful way in the show, in the Harvest production, which is created during the summer and is a devised production, which means that it is created from the cast, from the bottom. So yeah, the cast and the directors and the, are all co-writing and creating the piece together. And so it becomes...



a very collective creation piece. Obviously, the director has to make some choices and we make some choices about the text that ends up being the final text. But what is being suggested by the co-creators, by the participants, by the actors, becomes integral to the piece. And this year, the theme that we've started to explore and which...



in the theatre creation class is the idea of inside and outside. So kind of juxtaposing that as a theme, what the difference between things that occur, you know, in all different levels, inside and outside. I mean, I think it's a theme that on a literal level has a lot of resonance post-COVID-19 where a lot of us, you know.



So, because on a literal level, that idea of these indoor spaces and theatres typically done indoors, but then our show's going to be outdoors and what does that change? That's on a very literal level, but then we can all think of the different layers and understandings of where we decide this idea of things that are inside of us or things that are outside of us or worlds that are outer worlds and inner worlds. And so we're exploring those themes. Where it's going to go?



Who knows? Not necessarily, just in my head. Exactly. Skies a little bit. Yeah. That could be interpreted in a lot of different ways. And you aim to be doing that on Granville Island you mentioned. But is this something you'd be charging for? Is this free admission kind of thing? So the Fringe Festival does, there is charging ticket prices. However, we usually find a way to include anybody that...



wants to be included if it becomes an issue for you to pay the Fringe Festival prices. We usually have programs to allow people to come in. So don't let cost be something that gets in the way from being a part of it. And how long of a production is your Harvest Productions? Are these? Like how long will the piece be? Yeah.



Yeah, so it's usually I would say it's around an hour long. Well, these are that's pretty involved for theatre. Like, how do you when it comes to to theatre in Vancouver, how do you think how's it going? Is it is it is it hard to get people out these days? I mean, you look around at the Netflix and everything and everything VR or AR that people are doing these days. How is live theatre surviving in Vancouver these days? So I, you know, that's it again.



such an important question, I think, something that everybody in theatre is thinking about. And, you know, on the one hand, I would say, yeah, of course, people are, you know, have entertainment at their fingertips in their house in ways that they've never had before. And that's obvious. And the choice is overwhelming. And, you know, there's all those things. But what, obviously Netflix and...



all of these different providers don't provide is community. And the kind of the live interaction that live theatre produces. So in a way, as I think the pendulum swings has swung towards, you know, kind of all this access to online entertainment and streaming, we're gonna see, we are seeing a pendulum shifting towards people.



wanting and needing different forms of interaction with human beings and with others. And I think theatre as opposed as, or in juxtaposition to film and television offers that. And so are we getting, are we aiming to have thousands of people at our productions? No, but we are definitely getting lots of people that,



You may notice that we're filling up on our classes and we are getting, yeah, and we're getting lots of people to come out to our productions. Can we grow? Of course, we'd love to grow and have more and more people come. But I think there is that. And I think as, you know, and it's another thing that as AI develops as well, we're gonna see the ironically an increased value in the creative arts.



Because. So now there's sorry to interrupt, but now now there's I think we've just come up come up on a big piece of your your harvest about inside and outside. We're talking about games. We are like getting back into live theatre. There's now there's this juxtaposition. You're welcome. Well, yeah, I mean, that's it. That's the that's that's it. And and I think yes.



Thank you. I mean, I think, do you want to, do you want to be a part of the cast? I should be, I should be at this point. Yeah. I mean, that's, you know, you're making me think that that's such an interesting, you know, dimension of this is that, is that moving from the inside to the outside? Also is that movement from, you know, being stuck in our bedroom to, to coming out and being outside with others, you know? So yeah.



So you say your classes are popular because I know I noticed on your website the spring theatre creation class is fully booked. I don't know if that's still going or now we're getting a little bit past spring. Do you normally fill up all the spaces in your in your in your classes?



Um, yes, I mean, we often get a good turnout. All classes are different, so some of the classes fill out, fill up quicker than others, especially if we're gonna mount like a new class, then that might not fill up as quickly because people aren't familiar with it. Theatre creation has been around for a while, and so I would say that that one fills out the quickest. But yeah, we get really good turnouts. And, um...



You know, and people come back. People come back year after year. We have some people that have been in the theatre creation class as far back as I've been there. So that means at least probably seven years in a row. So, you know, that's always a good sign. Yeah, for sure. Now, do those classes cost money? Again, I think you sort of touch on this idea that Theatre Terrific is not, you know, we're not gonna refuse people over money or something like that. So...



The classes do cost money, and outside of that, where else do you get your funding?



Yeah, so they do. There is, again, exactly like you said, there's a cost, but we never turn people away. And we always have ways of allowing for people to be a part of the class if financially there's obstacles. And so we make it as accessible as possible in that way. Where does our funding come from? You know, we're still...



largely at this point dependent on government funding. So we do get a lot of Arts Council and different Council funding. So the Canadian Arts Council is a big part of our, of how we get our funding. That's a big source of our revenue. But we also, you know, the community.



So there are people that see our work that are part of the community that also then come to fundraisers and we do some fundraising through that. So we gain some money through fundraisers throughout the year. And we are in the midst of trying, we were in the midst of hiring somebody to do to try and branch out and to do corporate funding and just to see if there are corporations out there that that want to have theatre terrific.



as somebody that they support and see as teaming up with to get their message out and our message out in kind donations. So, you know, media companies that maybe want to donate in kind and then, you know, be a partner in the work that we do. And so we're looking to branch out in that way, for sure. How many staff, like how many full time staff does the theatre have? Oh,



We don't actually have any full-time staff, even me, I'm not full-time right now. There are, I would say, in staff, inwards of around three or four fluctuating staff members. And so, yeah, so nobody there is full-time. We all have other work that we do and then come on and work for for Theatre Terrific in certain capacities.



as we grow and as we develop in our corporate funding and in our government funding, we hope to grow and be able to have a much bigger staff and be able to include more and more people in our projects. So there's lots of volunteers as well? Yeah. I mean, I would say we try to pay people as much as possible. But obviously there's always space for volunteers. So whenever we're doing a production, if people want to volunteer and help with front of house or in different ways.



Um, you know, we're always, you know, embracing of that. And people sometimes just want to be around the excitement of a theatre piece. So people want to be there. And so we always encourage that, but as much as possible, we try to pay people and honor people's time and efforts in, in, in, in, in some ways. Um, so that's one of the things that we do is to try and, and, uh, include people. But.



For sure, people do want to volunteer. And our board, which is a huge part of this, is volunteer. So in every organization, you have a board, and we have some very active board members. So yeah, that becomes important. Yeah, well, that sounds really good. Anything else to add today? Like, have we not touched on anything else that you think that we need to chat about when it comes to theatre terrific?



You know, just how, you know, I want to say how I really, and this comes from really the bottom of my heart, that, you know, if anybody out there that is listening to this and is kind of on the fence around, you know, I have some artistic interest, but, you know, I don't know. I'm not sure if I have what it takes. I, you know, I.



I don't know if it's really gonna be accessible for me. Is that, you know, I really encourage them to take the jump off the fence, so to speak, and come in and, you know, experience some of the work we do because it is so wonderful to be a part of this community. And the, you know, the amount of...



smiles and joy that I see around me and that I experienced in myself through the work is so inspiring. And I think it's just, it's, you know, I just really encourage everybody to, you know, to not hold back if they have that. Cause I know we all have that little voice and every artist has that little voice on their shoulder that's been there.



since they were young, it's always like, oh, you're not really an artist. You're not really, you know. Is this really a good idea? I know the feeling. Exactly, and we all say it. So you've got to turn to that little person on your shoulder and you just got to say, be quiet. Get off my shoulder right now. I don't need you right now. And then jump in. That's what I would say. Yep. Yeah. Absolutely. All right, so how do people get in touch with you long? How do they get involved with the theatre?



So, is our website. There's many ways to, there's ways to get in touch and to contact, to link up with social media through the website. And there are contact details there for the company to reach out to us by email. And that would be the best way. And I'm artistic director at That's my email. So if anybody wants to reach out to me.



Personally, that's artisticdirector at So yeah, please reach out and let me know that you're out there and in any capacity that you wanna be involved, we have space for you. Yeah. Well, that sounds awesome. You have been listening to DDA's Encouraging Abilities podcast. My guest today has been Lon Hershler, the new artistic director of Theatre Terrific. It's a company based in Vancouver and they welcome actors of all abilities.



to come and explore the wonderful world of theatre. Lon, thanks again so much for joining me today. Thanks so much for having me. It's been a huge pleasure. And I'm Evan Kelly. See you next time.


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